Subic Bay - 17th Jul - 2 divers missing on USS New York

[TSandM]

Virtually all water contains particulates . . . if the water is still long enough, those particles precipitate out and form silt. If you disturb that kind of sediment, it comes up into the water, and if it is thick enough, it can literally reduce the visibility to where you can't read your gauges, even if they are pressed to your mask.

I had never experienced true zero viz until last December, when Dive-aholic (who is a friend) told us he took students through a particular passage in one of the Florida caves, to get the experience of zero visibility. He asked us if we wanted to try it, and we said yes -- having never been through this, we felt it was something we should see. Or not see . . . we went through the designated passage, and on our attempt to exit, I could not see the display from my Liquivision, unless it was pressed to my mask. The only information I had on up and down was my exhaust bubbles, and I'm pretty sure that at one point, I swam my head into the sediment. The disorientation and stress of true zero viz has to be experienced to be understood.

 

[DevonDiver]

what causes zero visibility? or lurky water? does strong wave cause water to become cloudy? anyone?

You might benefit from investigating the article link that I posted immediately before you asked this question.

Please try to restrict questions to those immediately relevant to the incident. Whilst this thread is aimed to have an educational value, it is attempting to draw those lessons from an incident involving a very specialised and advanced diving activity.

More generalised questions, about basic diving issues that you doesn't understand should be addressed by posing the question in a relevant forum (i.e. New Divers and Those Considering Diving). Please use the whole forum to develop your understanding, not just this thread.

 

[slowhands]

If engine room is not the planned target for them, I believe they do not need a guideline because Steve is very experienced there.

Also, I believe the zero vis is the result of some kicking. Because I was there 13-17, every afternoon I was in NY, and the vis is ok. Also, if it is zero vis when they went down there, they would definitely used the line or quit the dive.

The visibility near the New York varies. It is near a river mouth, and Subic Bay currents tend to move the silt around a lot. I have dove down to the wreck and had to call off the dive because the viz outside the wreck was about 1 meter, due to silt. Other days it was clear, and I made a few easy penetrations, nothing challenging, but not interesting to me. Due to the silt everywhere, I assume that inside the engine room where the divers were found, it can be bad too if you stir it up. A little panic if you lost the line, and you are kicking up a wall of silt. What a horrible way to go...

 

[DevonDiver]

Due to the silt everywhere, I assume that inside the engine room where the divers were found

There's no need to assume. Their location is described earlier in the thread. They weren't in any of the engine rooms.

 

[RikRaeder]

Depends. Whilst not a formal course, this still could have been a 'lite' practice dive. There are divers on the USS NY pretty much every day with technical kit - but not many of them are conducting technical penetrations.

True enough but I still don't see Steve wearing doubles unless it was a technical penetration or a deco dive (both possibilities).
Also, if the two customers were already certified techwreck, then what training would be left? Trimix? I don't think Steve was a Trimix instructor, but I may be wrong. It was a "fun" dive as stated by the owner of the dive op so I can't see as it had any bearing on any possible training they may have been up to.
You can get about 40 min with 32% in a 12l and that's plenty of time to circumnavigate or tour the lite penetration areas.
I wouldn't want to spend much longer on the gundeck as there's not THAT much to see.

As mentioned in previous posts; there are other technical penetrations other than the engine rooms.

Again, true (I know you're a tech instructor in Subic with WAY more experience than I'll ever have, but...) however I was referring to where they were reportedly FOUND, not where they PLANNED to be. The one report of them being found "behind the cannon" seems like a layman's interpretation. I didn't see in the diagrams that the gun turrets are accessible (are they?). My take is that the cannon remark was a general landmark and not the precise location. The most credible seems to be them being found in a passage leading to an engine room. The recent post stating that Steve was OOG and had an empty wing seems to correspond to transiting a tight restriction or something even more grisly (if accurate).

I'm not sure if they were found together, but I get the impression they were. Tin was recovered just before dark. They went for Steve early in the morning. I think this may have been a safety/logistical issue for the recovery team, not doing the second recovery in the evening, rather than not having found Steve.

That is the feeling I have too. From the reading I've done it seems that the diver closer to the exit is usually recovered first unless, as you say, there were some mitigating factor (one diver entangled, lodged in, etc) which of course is also entirely possible. Reading the chronology of events on this post and in the news reports, it's mentioned that the HK diver was found but makes no mention of the other. Rereading, that may just be poor semantics by non-native English speakers (no offense to nnE).
Once more I'm sure that you are more familiar than I with such things and also probably know some of the guys who did the recovery.

That's a good idea...

Thanks

The one fact that I can guarantee about this accident is that it really sucks.

 

[Blue Sparkle]

A bit more information. It seems that it was not a training dive but a fun dive (according to the shop's owner).

Johan de Sadeleir, owner of the dive shop where the 2 rented their gears, said it was supposed to be a fun dive. – Report from Abner Mercado and Dominic Almelor, ABS-CBN News

True enough but I still don't see Steve wearing doubles unless it was a technical penetration or a deco dive (both possibilities).
Also, if the two customers were already certified techwreck, then what training would be left? Trimix? I don't think Steve was a Trimix instructor, but I may be wrong. It was a "fun" dive as stated by the owner of the dive op so I can't see as it had any bearing on any possible training they may have been up to.

I've been thinking about the "fun dive" part ever since I first read it. I do understand the use of the term "fun" as opposed to "training," for dives, but on the other hand, the original article* did not have a hyphen between fun and dive, so to my mind it is possibly open to another interpretation. Here's what I mean:

Usage A: "Gosh, you spent a lot of time working on skills down there." "Oh, it wasn't a fun-dive; it was a training dive"

Usage B: "Boy, that free flow at 100' sure added stress; and Wreck X is usually such a fun dive!"

If I had to wager, I would agree that the dive-shop owner probably meant it was a "fun-dive" as opposed to a training dive; but on the other hand, I can see the possibility of him meaning "Well, it was supposed to be a fun dive (as in, an enjoyable dive whether or not it was a training dive), but then things went terribly wrong."

Given that usage of the hyphen in written English seems to be going by the wayside (sadly, since it can clarify meaning), and that many of the articles seemed to be translated into English anyway, it probably meant "fun" vs. "training," as in Usage A; but since we are trying to sort out what we know to be true from what might or might not be true, I thought I would mention this.

Blue Sparkle

*
Two missing foreign divers found dead in Subic | ABS-CBN News | Latest Philippine Headlines, Breaking News, Video, Analysis, Features

 

[HolgerH]

I only learned about the accident today …

I dived the “New York’ about 3 hours earlier and I sat with them in the shop before they boarded the boat to this unfortunate dive.

I would like to contribute some facts to the discussion here, not much but it might help to minimize the guessing.

To the actual conditions on the wreck.
We dived a common route; rope – prob – around the stern – rear canon – peep into e-room access – along the deck to the front canon and the bow - back over the hull to the blast area – dipping into the gun deck – stint peep into deck 2 – gun deck to the last hutch – and back to the roop

So, visibility: surface to -7m murky with huge amount of floating algae (~ 3m vis); down to the upper hull ~ 4 to 6m; getting to the prob it got murkier, round the stern as usual even less vis (poor vis about 1-2m to see shadows); in general the area bottom to +5m very poor vis; little better at the stern than; over the hull again up to 4/5m vis; getting into deck 1 + 2 vis as usual much better, even without lights;

[here my only guess: so based on reports which supposedly comes from Chow; most possible he came out of the wreck through the opening behind the rear canon coz vis was really bad there (assuming he didn’t came from the main e-room access (stair house); otherwise vis was not that bad as described. So seeing Steve turning around should still happened within the wreck?!]

- I was told that Chow dived ‘New York’ with Steve for years now; I don’t know about Tin.

- they went clearly on a 'technical-penetration for ‘FUN’, no course or training [whereas there is no fun dive with Steve; for him every dive was a serious Tech-Dive with adequate preparation for it. I joked about that with him coz he started as usual already checking and fixing his equipment at 10pm in the morning…

- they used nitrox doubles with about 32% (when testing Chow was joking Steve that he got some 0.x % more O2 coz he paid for it…); I think they brought decos but I’m not sure on that anymore …

- Steve discussed / briefed them on the planned route/dive. I didn’t hear in much so I don’t remember what there plan was but I remember that Steve talked a lot about the existing guide lines.

I hope it helps a little to shed light on the incident...

On personal word to Steve. I had to leave for work just when they boarded the boat; saying by-by, Steve answered in his own style “Remember, the worst day in diving is still better than the best day at work”; that’s how i knew him!

 

[DevonDiver]

The unusual report so far is that Tin was found with no mask, reg out and with gas remaining. That could indicate either a panic state, lost regulator & drowned - or it could indicate a non-diving medical condition presenting itself. Hopefully an autopsy will confirm or deny the second possibility.

Steve was out of air. That could indicate flawed gas planning, lost in the wreck, or an attempt to rescue/recover Tin that he pushed too far.

Would be very enlightening to know what Chow's gas state was when he left the other divers. He waited 30 minutes on the surface before raising the alarm, which 'hints' that he wasn't immediately concerned about their gas state when he left them. The further 'hints' that the divers were well above their reserve gas levels at that time. Anyone know Chow who can confirm that?

Would also be enlightening to know if the rescue team found any evidence of deployed safety reels near the deceased (hints at lost), or whether Steve's or Tin's long hoses were deployed for sharing (hints at OOA emergency).

 

[jimthediver]

Is it possible that Steve and Tin ended up giving their own lives looking for the other diver whom they thought was lost in the wreck?

 

[Blue Sparkle]

Note: This is just speculation -- really me "thinking out loud" -- as there are so many ways it could have happened.

I suppose that is possible, but going on what we know "from" Mr. Chow (the surviving diver), Mr. Brittain "knew" that something had happened to Mr. Tin, and went to help/look for him. Of course I suppose Mr. Tin could have thought the same thing, but then Mr. Chow and Mr. Brittain were apparently together, and Mr. Tin was not with them, so that makes it seem more likely that Mr. Tin "knew" he was the one separated or having a problem. But who knows?

From what we have of the surviving diver's story (which apparently is not completely accurate as presented by the press, but obviously we do know for a fact that he survived), they were all three together, when for some reason, Mr. Brittain turned back (towards Mr. Tin) because Mr. Tin wasn't there, or had a problem (?). Mr. Brittain may have indicated to Mr. Chow (surviving diver) to "go on ahead" or (and this seems more likely given team diving, at least in my OW head) to wait where he was*.

If they were swimming single-file, it would seem logical that Mr. Chow was in the lead position, Mr. Brittain in the middle, and Mr. Tin third (but again, I'm just thinking out loud; I don't know).

So perhaps Mr. Tin either had an equipment problem, lost the line (if they were following one at the time), or had a sort of mental glitch. By that I mean say, if they were not following a line perhaps he got confused and headed into a side passage or something. Or maybe some silt was disturbed and Mr. Brittain simply lost sight of Mr. Tin. If Mr. Tin did not regain contact then Mr. Brittain might have indicated "Wait here, I'll find him and we will return to this spot." (<---Note: I am not tech trained so I don't know, if this were the case, if this would fit protocol or if both Mr. Brittain and Mr. Chow "should" have gone back to look for or help Mr. Tin. See question below*.)

If all of the above was true, then apparently Mr. Brittain and Mr. Tin did not come back soon, and at some point Mr. Chow perhaps felt like he had to leave. If so, that would be a tough decision. But then there is the thought of not making an additional victim, that comes into play at some point.

I suppose also that all three could have become separated, and/or "lost" in a silt out. Even if they were not trying to find each other it could have been hard to find the way out.

It is very hard to read about this and not wonder what happened. Especially since there is a survivor. I was hoping he might come here to tell what he experienced.

Blue Sparkle

*Question. I know we don't know exactly what happened here, but for tech divers: If you are in a single-file 3-person team with an overhead, and at some point the middle person realizes the last person is no longer there right behind, what is the protocol? Would you (as the middle person) have the lead person "wait here" while you went back? Would you turn around (so middle person is now in "front") and both go looking? I would imagine the latter but I don't know. Would the answer change if the team was getting toward a critical point in gas supply?