Student lost - Seattle, Washington

[Belzelbub]

It's very interesting that Craig's solution to the problem is "Maybe had they taken some of the specialties more seriously they would be better divers" instead of training them correctly from the start. I know first hand that I was overweighted and taught skills on my knees in my Seattle Scuba open water class in 2018.

While I've been to Seattle, it was only on business trips, so I've never dove or trained with anyone involved.

However, Craig's solution might have some merit to it. Without a doubt, good divers start with good instructors. However, it's not just the instructor. The student also needs to put in some of the work (taking courses more seriously) to become good/better divers. An instructor can be great, but if the student only wants to do the bare minimum, then at the end of the course, you get a bare minimum diver. The instructor has standards for passing and failing. A D is still passing.

Point is, the fault of bad divers is not always on the instructor.

Edit to add: I was one of those OW students who got extremely poor instruction. My original course did not meet any standards. I was comfortable enough with the written portion, but the skills portion was where my instruction was poor. My original course included no pool work, and only one day of checkout dives. Checkout dives were done in poor visibility in an extremely shallow cove. I recognized that the instruction was poor, so took another course a couple years later.

 

[wgw04024]

While I've been to Seattle, it was only on business trips, so I've never dove or trained with anyone involved.

However, Craig's solution might have some merit to it. Without a doubt, good divers start with good instructors. However, it's not just the instructor. The student also needs to put in some of the work (taking courses more seriously) to become good/better divers. An instructor can be great, but if the student only wants to do the bare minimum, then at the end of the course, you get a bare minimum diver. The instructor has standards for passing and failing. A D is still passing.

Point is, the fault of bad divers is not always on the instructor.

Edit to add: I was one of those OW students who got extremely poor instruction. My original course did not meet any standards. I was comfortable enough with the written portion, but the skills portion was where my instruction was poor. My original course included no pool work, and only one day of checkout dives. Checkout dives were done in poor visibility in an extremely shallow cove. I recognized that the instruction was poor, so took another course a couple years later.

This is actually a pretty good point. My OW situation was similar to above. Fortunately, I took a trip with a shop and did my AOW and I learned lots of skills that seems should of been taught in OW. I also came back comfortable to dive on my own which I didn't feel previously. Between that, and reading this forum, those two things I think have made me a much more aware/safe diver.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@Belzelbub, @soldsoul4foos and anyone else thinking in a similar fashion,

Y'all not concerned about their track record? Training deaths at other schools are before my time.

Remember resort style course taught in cold water. Red flag number one. Let's not forget that students learn to dive in confined water. Also the change from a pool to the Puget Sound is a tad greater than the Caribbean.

I will cut you both slack as you've never seen their open water students with their consoles and octos swinging about as they walk into the water. I rarely dive cove 1 but I've always shaken my head when I've seen their open water classes.

 

[Belzelbub]

@Belzelbub, @soldsoul4foos and anyone else thinking in a similar fashion,

Y'all not concerned about their track record? Training deaths at other schools are before my time.

Remember resort style course taught in cold water. Red flag number one. Let's not forget that students learn to dive in confined water. Also the change from a pool to the Puget Sound is a tad greater than the Caribbean.

I will cut you both slack as you've never seen their open water students with their consoles and octos swinging about as they walk into the water. I rarely dive cove 1 but I've always shaken my head when I've seen their open water classes.

Without a doubt, their track record is a concern, and I agree is alarming. My comments might not be as relevant in this case, but was primarily in response to dismissing the student's role in good instruction.

Without a doubt, it starts with the instructor, but one should not judge an instructor based on the poor habits of a few students. When it starts to become the majority of those students, then that absolutely points to the instructor.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@Belzelbub

I fortunately have never had a bad student. By bad I mean unmotivated, someone forced by a parent or spouse to do an activity that they are not interested in. The biggest problem I've ever had with a student is one that was afraid of dark water. I sure wish her father, who was also in the class, told me about this instead of panicking just as we were to descend in our first open water dive. I don't blame her, I do have some issue with the father, but that is likely influenced by the fact that he was hitting on two single women in my class and was disruptive. I was advised to have students to have a snorkel in their mouth when above water in the pool.

In that class, I did have my best student ever. 14 year old girl who was a competitive synchronized swimmer. She was on it! Big grin, I didn't have to do anything to teach her, she was a sponge. I have had students that take longer. However, they stuck it out, I encouraged them and I stuck it out. That's how it is supposed to work as scuba diving is a transformational experience for many who think that they can't do it and they discover that not only that they can, but it is fun and they can do it well.

So maybe I've just been fortunate to not have indifferent/unmotivated students. I get pretty excited teaching open water, so I hope I have a positive impact on my students' outlook. I don't consider my students who just wanted to go diving in some tropical destination and didn't care to be taught properly bad, as they listened to instructions and worked to achieve the performance bar that I had set (I have never taught for an agency with objective performance standards).

 

[Belzelbub]

So maybe I've just been fortunate to not have indifferent/unmotivated students. I get pretty excited teaching open water, so I hope I have a positive impact on my students' outlook. I don't consider my students who just wanted to go diving in some tropical destination and didn't care to be taught properly bad, as they listened to instructions and worked to achieve the performance bar that I had set (I have never taught for an agency with objective performance standards).

Thanks for that explanation. That helps. The quote above may be a big part of it. Sounds like you have a passion for teaching OW. Without a doubt, that can help to keep the student's engaged. I've had instructors all over the place. My first instructor was terrible. The next OW class was actually good, but it was large. Good instructor to student ratio, but there were a lot of students and a lot of instructors. I won't say, however, that every student was fully engaged. It was a college course, so you've got your mix of those that really wanted to learn, and those that primarily wanted to check out the girls.

To the instructor's credit, he was honest at the beginning. The first day, he addressed all the students. He said if you selected this class for an easy A, you are in the wrong class. He went on to say that this is not an easy A class. It's easy to get a B, but you'll need to put in the effort to get an A. I got an A.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@Belzelbub

That's not a scenario I will ever find myself. I can see how some students may just want to mess around and not take it seriously. That's one difference between an instructor at an educational institution and myself. I don't have to take on students if my spider sense goes off. Fortunately as an independent or shop instructor, students have some motivation, only exception being the ones pressured into it by a diving parent/partner.

 

[Steelyeyes]

I learned to dive in Puget Sound in 1975. We might have been slightly overweighted but not that bad. I was 15 years old and we did a 5 day camp with the main instructor, Neil Herd. I don't remember anything really about being neutrally buoyant all of the time. I learned that far later when I did my PADI AOW and Divemaster courses, which were done in far warmer water in Hawaii.

I really think that there is a large difference in warm and cold water diving that isn't really addressed, from what I can see, in the instruction. I think a resort course in a tropical location is probably OK but Puget Sound or any other cold, generally darker, lower visibility spots should be more thorough to account for those environmental differences and their impact on a person's psyche.

I'm neither an expert or instructor but I have been around the block at least once. Anyone that rushes students through a crash course that lacks thorough preparation and oversight in a cold water environment just seems too risky.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I really think that there is a large difference in warm and cold water diving that isn't really addressed

That's one of my issues with agencies in general. They don't give any guidelines to instructors, but say the instructor is to use their judgment. Well, in dive shops in my area that are essentially mills, if you want to reduce ratios, get some unpaid by the shop assistants or co-teach and split the payment ($25 to get through academics, pool session, $25 more only if the person gets certified). Often many instructors don't want to split the class.

Now this is not true for two shops I recommend: Off the Hook Diving in Lacey, and 8 Diving in Des Moines. Both these shops focus on quality, low ratios, neutral buoyancy/trim, etc.. And they have a great retention rate. I have no affiliation with either shop other than having received training in the past from instructors at both shops.

I don't know how to address the mills. Instructors have been fired over pushing back on large classes. There's plenty of instructors to replace them. And here's the thing, the instructor is still on the hook for the large class. Sometimes the shop is as well, but it depends on how good their attorney is. Agencies are even less likely to be on the hook as while they know. Everyone knows that I think agencies have created an unsafe situation to maximize profit, but they've been able and likely always will be able to skirt their responsibility. After all, how could an agency allow a shop with so many training deaths continue to operate under their umbrella?

I'm neither an expert or instructor but I have been around the block at least once. Anyone that rushes students through a crash course that lacks thorough preparation and oversight in a cold water environment just seems too risky.

It is complete hubris to dismiss your observations. We are not talking about table top fusion. This is scuba diving. It isn't hard or complex. Some people think only CDs/ITs can comment on instructor training programs. Some people think only instructors can comment on training courses.

When it only takes common sense, learning (can be self-driven) and the power of observation.

 

[stuartv]

I take exception at this attack at my dear friend Craig. Here I am supporting his program in the Moss Bay Diver / PNW Scuba group on Facebook.
View attachment 709951
When you have friends like me......

I am unclear. This post from you seems to be defending Seattle Scuba. You took exception to an attack on Craig Gillespie, who (from what I gather here) IS Seattle Scuba? But then your later posts seem to be supporting the idea that Seattle Scuba has a comparatively poor safety record.

Point is, the fault of bad divers is not always on the instructor.

I feel like this is a bit of a cop-out for instructors. At least, with SDI/TDI (the agency I teach for), I don't have to "pass" any student. The language of the standards gives me all the leeway I need in order to not certify someone I think is not going to be able to dive safely on their own. Even if they have, technically, done all the skills.

Further SDI teaches instructors that the ultimate standard is "would you feel comfortable having this person dive with a member of your family?" I personally don't have any children, so I always look at my students and ask myself, "would I be okay with sending this person to go dive with one of my nieces?"

I have had students that didn't want to be there. Most recently, I had a teenage girl in the classroom. She was getting certified along with her mom, because her mom was making her do it. It was evident that she had no interest and would not put any effort in. I told the mom that if the daughter didn't want to do it, and didn't demonstrate the knowledge and skills, she was not going to get certified. At my shop, there is no pressure to certify anyone that I or any other instructor is not comfortable with. And, we never have more than 4 students per instructor in open water and usually not in the pool, either.

In other words, the instructor is the final authority (at least, with SDI/TDI), and so, if an instructor certifies a bad diver, that is on the instructor. If the student doesn't want to be there, doesn't put in the effort, and is not a safe, competent diver (at the new, Open Water level), then the instructor should not issue a certification.

Of course, I recognize that it does happen that sometimes we'll have a student that does great, gets certified, then goes out into the real world, maybe doesn't dive at all for a while, forgets everything, and then they are a terrible diver. But, I am not sure there is any standard or agency that can really fix that issue.