Student lost - Seattle, Washington

[boulderjohn]

I don't see why you would insert your own personal opinions. The only thing that should be included in a report are facts. As long as people/organizations stick to facts, there is no basis for suing for slander. That doesn't prevent a lawsuit. We could sue each other. And it would be thrown out, however there is still the expense and inconvenience of it. I do not think that agencies are at the same level of risk. If I was still a PADI instructor and I caused a training accident, and PADI published a report detailing facts that reveal my negligence, I could try and sue. But PADI would win that case, possibly countersue to recoup their legal costs.

Believe me, it is often hard to identify the facts.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Because when you are retained as an expert, to analyze and evaluate, your opinion is exactly what is being asked for?

That's for a court of law or for filling in the gaps of what happened. I'd like to see just the facts and testimony. Of there is contradictory testimony, let that be shared.

 

[stuartv]

That's for a court of law or for filling in the gaps of what happened. I'd like to see just the facts and testimony.

I'd like a rebreather with sorb that lasts forever and O2 sensors that never fail or give a bad reading. Oh, and a mask that never leaks.

Should we start a pool on which of us will get what we'd like first?

 

[mtoyama]

Wow. I do hope that I miscommunicated. As someone who has been a combat flight instructor trainer, flight safety officer and instructor trainer of such, as an Advanced Aviation Accident Investigation Trainer for the last 20 years, I am following the EXACT procedure used in military and civil aviation. The primary difference is that root cause is often not found because there's no budget in the industry to really do it, and LE efforts often stop once foul play is eliminated.

Believe me, I care a great deal, but the reality is that in diving we very often don't know the real causes. I can live with that, reluctantly, as long as I have done everything I can to safeguard my students and myself based on whatever information I do have. I prefer my approach to the one I often hear, which is "when we know what really happened, then I will look at it" and then nothing ever happens.

Thanks for taking the time to explain more, and I apologize about my last line about caring, that was over the line.

I think I understand what you're saying better now. Assuming limited information, we should use the information we have to imagine possible causes, short of speculation. I cited NHTSA and NTSB because honestly they kind of set the standard, but you're saying that we rarely get that level of investigation. I get that now.

I'd like to read more about the standards in your industries so I can learn more -- do you have recommendations?

I still think there's caution needed here due to the overfitting & sense of security problem. I work in a safety critical industry and we can't afford to fall short of addressing the root cause of an incident.

 

[boulderjohn]

That's for a court of law or for filling in the gaps of what happened. I'd like to see just the facts and testimony. Of there is contradictory testimony, let that be shared.

It's the court of law that is the problem. For example, the agency investigation will include the incident report from the instructor, which is a confidential document. If you were the defendant in a potential multi-million dollar lawsuit, how would you feel about having what is essentially a private confession released to the plaintiffs' attorneys?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I'd like a rebreather with sorb that lasts forever and O2 sensors that never fail or give a bad reading. Oh, and a mask that never leaks.

Should we start a pool on which of us will get what we'd like first?

Asking for a violation of the laws of physics is not exactly the same category.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

It's the court of law that is the problem. For example, the agency investigation will include the incident report from the instructor, which is a confidential document. If you were the defendant in a potential multi-million dollar lawsuit, how would you feel about having what is essentially a private confession released to the plaintiffs' attorneys?

Like the Tuvell case?

When a training agency decides it is more important than its instructor members or, worse, the training agency helps the plaintiff sue its own members

 

[chillyinCanada]

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[Bob DBF]

I cited NHTSA and NTSB because honestly they kind of set the standard, but you're saying that we rarely get that level of investigation. I get that now.

These are government agencies tasked with investigation and reporting their respective accidents and, because of the importance of their job, are given wide access to everything pertaining to the accident and are insulated from legal repercussions, when making their reports.

Scuba accidents, as well as many other types of accidents, are not that important to the nation, and are resolved through the legal system.

 

[RainPilot]

I apologize about my last line about caring, that was over the line.

No apology needed, we are all doing our best in this silly breathing underwater pursuit of ours.

I think I understand what you're saying better now. Assuming limited information, we should use the information we have to imagine possible causes, short of speculation. I cited NHTSA and NTSB because honestly they kind of set the standard, but you're saying that we rarely get that level of investigation. I get that now.

Thats what I meant, yes, same page for sure.

I'd like to read more about the standards in your industries so I can learn more -- do you have recommendations?

PM sent

I still think there's caution needed here due to the overfitting & sense of security problem.

Couldn't agree more. We do what we can with the hand we are dealt, not the one we wish we had, but that doesn't mean we don't push for better going forward.