hecker-the-wrecker
Guest
I have a question. What happened to the knife? Did he ask for it back? Do you want to sell it? Just kidding. But I do have a good reason for asking about his reaction.
Student decides buoyancy is best & bolts
- Thread starter Shiprekd
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Just curious, but say that diver had embolized or injured himself in some other way, and tried to sue the instructors. How would that likely play out in a U.S. court system? Would it even make it to court?
I'm scared to death of lawsuits nowadays, dang thing's are poppin' up like gangbusters.
I'm scared to death of lawsuits nowadays, dang thing's are poppin' up like gangbusters.
Kriterian
Guest
Shiprekd:
The main topic of this seems to have been well discussed so I thought I would slightly hijack it by asking:
What exactly is the "nut-n-bolt" test? I'm assuming it's just a nut and bolt you try to put together underwater to determine dexterity or if the person is narc'd. Is there more to it than that? Also, how big are the nut and bolt, because I have trouble on land sometimes with small ones, hehe.
Some thoughts about panic...
In my career of DMing and teaching, I have only had two paniced divers (both while a DM). Both of these had events that obviously precipitated them. One was a "lost mask" that was caught in her long hair, and the other was a bite by a moray. These were easy to discuss as they had obvious beginnings. They were also easy to arrest, since I saw the incidents and was able to move in as they were making their decisions to bolt.
Blind panic though, is not only dangerous since you cannot see the onset, but it is incredibly humiliating for the victim. There is no obvious reason for the onset, and consequently any subsequent discussions of the incident will continually drive that point home.
A few have mentioned the "little voice" as the possible culprit. While it may have started the avalanche of emotions or added to it, the few people that I have met who have been hit by underwater panic have cited it as the precipitating event. To a person, they all thought they were out of gas when panic hit. It seems that they allowed that little voice (or whatever) to drive them into hyperventilation. The increase in breathing was probably gradual as the stress grew in the diver, but it appears that by the time sheer panic overtook them, they were significantly over breathing their regs giving them the feeling of an OOA. Once a diver feels they can't breathe, they are going to bolt.
A steady stream of bubbles may be the only outward sign given by the victim. As this would increase gradually at first, it can be easy to overlook. Immediate tactile contact with the distressed diver and a close look into their mask is the only way to interupt the panic cycle. If the breathing cannot be brought under control, a normal ascent is mandated with close contact being maintained throughout.
After surfacing from such an episode, empathy should be used generously. Assigning blame or cussing them out will have a negative effect on the distressed diver, though it might be somewhat cathartic for the rescuer. They have just been through an incredibly traumatic event and already know that they made some stupid mistakes.
How far to take this is up to you. Although I am not a medical doctor or a psychiatrist, I have found that patience helps a lot towards getting them back into the water with fewer phobias.
In my career of DMing and teaching, I have only had two paniced divers (both while a DM). Both of these had events that obviously precipitated them. One was a "lost mask" that was caught in her long hair, and the other was a bite by a moray. These were easy to discuss as they had obvious beginnings. They were also easy to arrest, since I saw the incidents and was able to move in as they were making their decisions to bolt.
Blind panic though, is not only dangerous since you cannot see the onset, but it is incredibly humiliating for the victim. There is no obvious reason for the onset, and consequently any subsequent discussions of the incident will continually drive that point home.
A few have mentioned the "little voice" as the possible culprit. While it may have started the avalanche of emotions or added to it, the few people that I have met who have been hit by underwater panic have cited it as the precipitating event. To a person, they all thought they were out of gas when panic hit. It seems that they allowed that little voice (or whatever) to drive them into hyperventilation. The increase in breathing was probably gradual as the stress grew in the diver, but it appears that by the time sheer panic overtook them, they were significantly over breathing their regs giving them the feeling of an OOA. Once a diver feels they can't breathe, they are going to bolt.
A steady stream of bubbles may be the only outward sign given by the victim. As this would increase gradually at first, it can be easy to overlook. Immediate tactile contact with the distressed diver and a close look into their mask is the only way to interupt the panic cycle. If the breathing cannot be brought under control, a normal ascent is mandated with close contact being maintained throughout.
After surfacing from such an episode, empathy should be used generously. Assigning blame or cussing them out will have a negative effect on the distressed diver, though it might be somewhat cathartic for the rescuer. They have just been through an incredibly traumatic event and already know that they made some stupid mistakes.
How far to take this is up to you. Although I am not a medical doctor or a psychiatrist, I have found that patience helps a lot towards getting them back into the water with fewer phobias.
RonFrank
Contributor
Kriterian:
In our AOW class, the nut and bolt test was a bolt with about five washers on it, and a nut screwed onto the end. The bolt was threaded about 1/2", and the nut was screwed down to where the threads stop. The idea is to remove the nut, remove the washers, and then reassemble. You do this with gloves on before the dive, and then at depth to see if the depth (narc'd), and diving impact the lag time.
So if you are slow on the surface, but not much slower at depth then you are handling things well. If you freak out, and bolt for the surface while doing the test, something is DEFINATELY amiss
H2Andy
Contributor
say, does smoking affect narcosis?
i know it pumps up your CO levels, and it makes you hypoxic ... but does it
affect narcosis?
hmmm... well.... thinking outloud, if you are hypoxic, you are not going to be
as warm as a "normal" diver, so since cold is a factor in narcosis, it probably does,
doesn't it?
i know it pumps up your CO levels, and it makes you hypoxic ... but does it
affect narcosis?
hmmm... well.... thinking outloud, if you are hypoxic, you are not going to be
as warm as a "normal" diver, so since cold is a factor in narcosis, it probably does,
doesn't it?
Ayisha
Contributor
NetDoc:
That's true. Overbreathing your regs can feel like you're OOA.
When I did my O/W three years ago, all morning, I had to clear my mask frequently, and it was difficult, but I didn't know why. It almost never leaked without a hood. I had practiced in the pool with the thick gloves - but unfortunately not the hood.
In the morning, I had taken my puffer as suggested by my doctor for cold dives (40F at 20 feet here). On the way to the second dive site, I had been in a car that had dog hair in it, which I am allergic to and can trigger my asthma. I had forgotten to take my puffer in the afternoon, and had left it in the hotel room, but I felt fine.
I was kneeling on the bottom waiting for my turn to do the CESA, and I had adjusted my mask strap, and kept having full floods. I did the mask re & re and repeatedly cleared it, to no avail. As soon as the water exited, it gushed back in again. I had the bright idea to exhale even deeper and faster, and then take a quick breath in, and do it again, trying to beat the flow of water. :shakehead A very capable DM noticed my difficulty, and put her hand on my arm. I felt comforted as she looked into my mask and tried to adjust the seal, but nothing worked. Then the instructor tried, but he couldn't fix it either. I had been very calm throughout, but now it was getting more and more difficult to breathe. I signalled "up", but they continued to try to adjust my mask. Now I couldn't get ANY air out of the reg, and I had nothing to exhale. I signalled "out of air" because that is exactly how I felt, and I was going up, whether they were coming or not. The DM held onto me and prevented me from bolting to the surface during our excruciatingly slow ascent. I felt my lungs expand painfully and I thought they were going to explode. I tried to exhale, but it wasn't working. The surface surprisingly brought no relief. They pulled out my reg, took off my BC, undid my wetsuit jacket, towed me back to shore, and I still couldn't breathe. I could only inhale/exhale extremely shallow and rapidly for the next two hours.
That instructor never spoke to me about the incident. The instructor that I had in the morning spoke to me while we were waiting for the other divers to finish, and he was gentle about it, but he couldn't understand why. He even asked me if I wanted to try again, and I said no, I was done for the day, which was completely unlike my personality, but I didn't have my puffer and still could not breathe properly. I realized after taking the Rescue Diver course many months later that I probably should have received oxygen.
The next day, I remembered my puffer, had to clear my mask fairly often, and at some point we figured out that it was the hood that was pushing my mask down, and needed to be trimmed. If I stopped pushing the hood back, it would stop pushing back down and breaking the seal at the bottom of my mask. I did the dives without any further incidents. At home, I trimmed the hood and tried the mask clearing and re & re with the gloves in the LDS pool, and did it successfully immediately. Then I did it and the CESA in O/W with an instructor a couple of weeks later, and got certified.
Sorry for the long story, but I felt that the details were necessary to understand the situation. Nothing would have been obvious to other people except repeated unsuccessul mask clearing. They may have noticed a steady stream of bubbles signifying a lot more exhaling than inhaling or rapid breathing, either way, overbreathing the reg. It had been so many years since I had an asthma attack, that even I thought at the time that I had hyperventilated or that something was wrong with the reg, not that I had an asthma attack.
Just so you know, once the hood was trimmed, I never had another problem. I carry my puffer with me, and have never had an asthma attack again.
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