St. Thomas - Good Diving but Overpriced Ghetto

[H2Andy]

My kids call places "ghetto" to mean sucky. NOTHING to do with color.

lol... who said it did?

... color has nothing to do with this, as far as i am concerned ... and to illustrate that, i gave an example of white friends who feel the same way than the St. Thomas islanders half a world away...

you're not talking to the party who seems upset by color



i do find it interesting that "natives" and "ghetto" were used to describe St. Thomas. it does not offend me (frag that) but it does tell me a lot about the speaker's frame of mind.

 

[Cacia]

but it does tell me a lot about the speaker's frame of mind.

it could be regional, his age...who knows?

HOW does it speak to his frame of mind? What term do you like "endegenous people"?
locals...what? Tell me what word he should use? The people were mean to him and it was dangerous. How does the man share that experience with the "correct" words?

If you go somewhere and get a really bad vibe, how do you say that?

So...if we talk about dangerous white ghettos, are we forgiven? cause I hear Moscow is pretty dangerous. I did want to go there, but I heard it sucks.

If you go down to Bovoni, in St Thomas, the words ghetto will definetly come to mind. Urban jungle? Is Jungle a bad word?

can Bagdad or Falujah be an urban jungle?

Unless the white malcontents you went to grad school with are changing the world in some way...who cares if they think the government lied to them? I don't care if they are right or wrong, but are they at least relevant?

I get so tired of we Americans pontificating, myself included.

 

[H2Andy]

he should use whatever words best reflect his world view

if he wants to call them "f-ing n----rs" that's fine by me (which he did not, just an example)

but it does tell me i don't want to hang around with him

HOW does it speak to his frame of mind?

ok... well ... i'm about to get pedagogical here

those terms are terms of economic and social segregation. the "natives" belong in their island, except their island is ours now. and they are in a "ghetto" where they don't have access to the economic opportunities the more privileged have.

to me, the OP feels comfortable with these divisions, EXCEPT he is put out that the "natives" in their "ghetto" are not happy to see him and do not throw him, the Great Western Tourist, a welcome party to show their gratitude for not being exterminated a few centuries back ...

instead, he is surprised that these people that have been screwed by the power elites seem to (God forbid) resent his wealth and mobility and feel they have been screwed out of participating in the wealth. specially when those people were literally slaves until about 120 years ago, and literally belonged to the Great Western Masters.

you don't have to agree with their point of view. you just need to see it and not look past it in your Great Western Tour of the Uncivilized World.

i wonder if Westeners ever imagine the world with the situations reversed, and put themselves in the place of third world peoples. well, obviously many do, but i fear too many don't.

 

[ReefHound]

Wow. For someone who claims that "color has nothing to do with this, as far as I am concerned" you sure seem to be casting the whole thing in terms of racial issues. To hear you describe it one would think the OP is a white explorer who set out on a venture to conquer a foreign land. He's just some guy who went on vacation.

I think it's commendable when someone seeks to know a little about the local people and culture of a land they are visiting, but I don't think it should be expected that one thoroughly research the history of a people back hundreds of years and analyze their social values/issues just to go on a freakin' dive trip.

As far as I'm concerned, their inability to get over the past is their problem. I'm not going to pay penance or feel guilt over it. I'll just never go there and they can wallow in the own waste from now to eternity, if they wish.

 

[Cacia]

hey, I am open to that possibilty, Andy. But I don't pre-decide that is always the case.

... they could just be lazy and mean for some reason that doesn't involve me.

maybe they are choosing their plight by just having an attitude that it is someone else's fault.

I mean, it's possible because the other islands are pretty happy upbeat places, by comparison.

you just need to see it and not look past it in your Great Western Tour of the Uncivilized World.

total aggreement with that.

you need to realize that the guy who works 9-5 just might want to relax though.

that's what I meant by cutting him some slack. He is just responding to the message he got.

You also need to realize that the power elites screwing the people might be St Thomians, lol, don't rule that out.

I am just saying, I have decided that *everything* is not always our fault.

I'll just never go there and they can wallow in the own waste from now to eternity, if they wish.

now those thoughts will poison you, resist that.

thoroughly research the history of a people back hundreds of years and analyze their social values/issues

I am weary of that old record too. Every day I wonder why we have to talk about the holocaust again, put up another museum and no one says a word about female infantacide. Let's at least get into the now.
It's like we are stuck. Slavery, white guilt, holocaust, WWII.....what about now?

Even the Arizona Memorial people get on my nerves. People go there in droves and get all emotional yet they are totally checked out about the present. It is only safe to discuss politics of the past, it seems.

There is no doubt in my mind that the poorest St Thomian kid could hop a plane to NYC and work as a dishwasher and get somewhere in a few years, if that kid from Nigeria, "Bor-bor" got here and joined the Marines. I cannot get over those kids from other countries and what they are doing....amazing no matter what you think, right/ wrong.

I heard there are more Puerto Ricans in NYC than in Puerto Rico...

like I said, wether its a man taking a vacation, or somebody who wants a better life, everybody is just trying to survive. Blaming Westerners is a big waste of time. You can be correct and still be wasting your time.

 

[H2Andy]

Wow. For someone who claims that "color has nothing to do with this, as far as I am concerned" you sure seem to be casting the whole thing in terms of racial issues.

nope ... it's not race; it's economics

economics is the driving force of history

race is just an accident of history

I'm not going to pay penance or feel guilt over it.

it's funny how the language of guilt keeps popping up in this conversation ... from your side only

should tell you something

i have no interest in making you feel guilty

i have an interest in making you understand a different perspective

 

[H2Andy]

I am just saying, I have decided that *everything* is not always our fault.

very true ... but no one is speaking about "fault" here. we are speaking about cause and effect, history, and cultural views

the language of guilt and the language of fault simply derail an understanding of the issue. it's not about black or white or whose fault it is.

 

[ReefHound]

nope ... it's not race; it's economics

economics is the driving force of history

race is just an accident of history

I actually agree 100% but it seems everyday we have minority activists alleging racial discrimination where the real issue is economic disparity. How often do we hear how the law is biased because minorities are disproportionately represented in prisons? I've seen numbers show the biggest factors in convictions/sentences is being able to post bail and get a private attorney. Appearing at your trial well-groomed and well-dressed makes it easy for the jury to see you as a decent person who just slipped up. Appearing in jail jumpsuits makes it easy for them to see you as a thug who needs to be off the street. The attorney will tell his client how to walk, talk, sit, dress, and look so he appears innocent or remorseful rather than threatening and rebellious.

As if I need to tell *you* about trials??? He he.

it's funny how the language of guilt keeps popping up in this conversation ... from your side only

should tell you something

i have no interest in making you feel guilty

i have an interest in making you understand a different perspective

My side? Which side is that? I didn't know we had sides here.

It tells me something but probably not what you're thinking. But back to the topic, let's say the OP did try to understand their different perspective, what would you have him do? Go there and feel good about getting hated and potentially robbed? Sell his house and throw dollars all over the streets?

I understand their perspective. But they have to get over the past and work towards improving their present. Harboring hate and resentment or turning to corruption and crime is not the way.

 

[H2Andy]

I understand their perspective. But they have to get over the past and work towards improving their present. Harboring hate and resentment or turning to corruption and crime is not the way.

ok, but do you realize the obstacles between them and improving their present?

and why they see the tourist not as a friend, but as someone else's friend?

My side? Which side is that? I didn't know we had sides here.

from my perspective, there are two sides of this argument:

1. those who believe the tourist is neutral or positive to local social justice; and

2. those who believe the tourist is, under certain circumstances, negative to local social justice

all i am saying is that, in some instances, the tourist is an ally of an unfair and/or unequitable social order, and those who are the losers in that social order will resent the tourist

btw, you are dead on as to the legal system. there are two classes in America:

those who can afford competent legal counsel

and those who can't

 

[ReefHound]

ok, but do you realize the obstacles between them and improving their present?

and why they see the tourist not as a friend, but as someone else's friend?

I realize it, I understand, the question is what do I do about it?

I have a hard time seeing where the tourist is detrimental, even if their social order is unjust and the recipients of the wealth are the elite power class. It's still more money and jobs than otherwise. There is no ready alternative standing by. It's not like if the darned tourists would just leave St Thomas then Ford will open up plants and give everybody high paying jobs. If the tourists leave you simply have nothing.