Split from: Diver Death in Cayman

[fosterboxermom]

This is exactly where the problem comes in. Most people shopping for a class don't know what questions to ask when they call around and most shops dont likely have much time to go into lengthy sales pitches with every customer that calls. Some shops undoubtedly make a better effort than others, but like with any industry that tends to be the exception rather than the rule.

True, however, I don't think they have to go into a lengthy sales pitch, but tell people before they sign up with anyone do some research and then make a decision. That's all. But I don't think that is how most dive shops work. If someone calls and asks to take a course they don't question them they take their money and sign em up, certify them and give them their c cards whether or not they earned them or not. I have never met anyone who told me they failed the cert course.

My husband and I take a two week cruise every year for the sole purpose of diving. We pretty much use the cruise ship as a taxi to take us to different places each day. We started out using the cruise ships dive shops but learned that most of the divers were beginners and or hadn't been diving in a while or just had bad skills. Also, the dive shops the cruises tend to use pretty much knew the "type" of divers they would be getting and would take them to beginner dive sites. (Actually which was a good thing) so we started using dive shops off the cruise ship and found most of them to be good. We would also try to hook up with others that were doing the same thing that had the same experience and skills that we had.

But my point being is that once you have a c card most shops don't ask any questions other than when was your last dive. You can tell them it has been 5 years and they will still put you on a boat with other divers and let you get in the water without a refresher course as long as you pay the money. I realize you are responsible for yourself and you sign a waiver. They could at least have the human compassion to ADVISE the diver you haven't been diving in a long time are you sure you want to do this dive? We do offer a refresher course.

I have to admit that I ALWAYS went to PADI.com to find a dive shop because I THOUGHT PADI did some kind of regulating with their dive shops and that I could with some reason know that the shop was operating legally at least under the country's laws. But come to find out from a PADI rep that isn't always the case. So now I WILL NOT trust PADI.com again and I will do research on my own.

That I can thank Brendan for.

 

[Rick Murchison]

... As fas as I know, there is no "periodic inspection" of instructors ...

SSI requires annual reports on all its instructors, submitted by their associated SSI sponsoring shop.
AFAIK the only required formal CE is currency in First Aid, Oxygen Admin & CPR.
As a practical matter the very best CE for an instructor is from the students, who're constantly inventing new and clever ways to hurt themselves.
And no, we do not need the government's help in policing instructors.

Rick

 

[fosterboxermom]

SSI requires annual reports on all its instructors, submitted by their associated SSI sponsoring shop.
AFAIK the only required formal CE is currency in First Aid, Oxygen Admin & CPR.
As a practical matter the very best CE for an instructor is from the students, who're constantly inventing new and clever ways to hurt themselves.
And no, we do not need the government's help in policing instructors.

Rick

All instructors should have it so good to of had you as a student. You are making it sound like students should know how to dive and all the do's and don'ts of the diving world before they sign up for class. Hence the name "students". Hopefully, you teach better than you criticize.

 

[Cave Diver]

All instructors should have it so good to of had you as a student. You are making it sound like students should know how to dive and all the do's and don'ts of the diving world before they sign up for class. Hence the name "students". Hopefully, you teach better than you criticize.

I don't think Rick is belittling students. On the contrary, every thing I've seen posted by him leads me to think he's probably an exemplary teacher.

I think what he was trying to say was that the wide variety of challenges that students present to instructors just serves to make the instructors better. There is no such thing as "I've seen it all" when it comes to teaching students.

 

[fisheyeview]

Please note that I am editing posts quoted to reduce the length of my post, not for content.

True, however, I don't think they have to go into a lengthy sales pitch, but tell people before they sign up with anyone do some research and then make a decision. That's all. But I don't think that is how most dive shops work. If someone calls and asks to take a course they don't question them they take their money and sign em up, certify them and give them their c cards whether or not they earned them or not. I have never met anyone who told me they failed the cert course.

But my point being is that once you have a c card most shops don't ask any questions other than when was your last dive. You can tell them it has been 5 years and they will still put you on a boat with other divers and let you get in the water without a refresher course as long as you pay the money. I realize you are responsible for yourself and you sign a waiver. They could at least have the human compassion to ADVISE the diver you haven't been diving in a long time are you sure you want to do this dive? We do offer a refresher course.

I have seen instructors that I have worked with tell students that diving was not for them. I have seen them refund money to them when they have told them they could not continue to teach them.

It has been my experience, especially with operators in the Keys, that if you have not dove within a year to make you dive with a DM, that if you haven't dove in more than 2 years to do skills in the pool before diving with the instructor. There is even one operation that I know of that makes you get re-certified if you haven't dove in a couple of years. Some of these ops are safety aware, and some have just learned from past incidents.

I would like to see PADI do more training before giving out c cards. I don't like what PADI has become. Watching Pam on her dive she never should have been given a c card without more training. I can't say anything about Brendan because I was never his Buddy and didn't see him dive on a buddy level.

I have worked a lot of classes over the years. I was fortunate to work with a good shop, and a lot of great instructors. On many an occassion I stood by them as they explained to a student that they were not ready for their dives yet, or that they needed more dives before they would sign off on their certification.

The shop I used to work for happened to be the shop that I went Basic Scuba all the way through DM. Upon hiring a new instructor (either newly certified, or just new to the shop) they put them through additional training. They had to audit 2 OW classes and one AOW class with one of the other shop instructors before they were allowed to teach a class while under the supervision of the other instructor.

This may have been more the exception than the rule, but I was fortunate to have literally grown up in that shop.

I have also been the primary witness in 2 PADI investigations that resulted in the instructors losing their licenses.

Terry,

True, especially if they were trained by PADI! And I say that because I never would have. (Oh, man am I going to get slammed by a PADI DM for this one):blinking:

I have been a PADI DM since 1980. I have seen good instructors, and I have seen bad instructors. I can say the same about most agencies out there. I have worked with some "90 day wonders", and I will admit they leave a lot to be desired in an instructor.

I have worked with instructors soley for the fact that I felt that I owed it to the students for their own safety.

 

[joker31]

All instructors should have it so good to of had you as a student. You are making it sound like students should know how to dive and all the do's and don'ts of the diving world before they sign up for class. Hence the name "students". Hopefully, you teach better than you criticize.

I think you missed his point. What he means (or so I took it) is that you the best way to learn is to do. You can sit me in a class and show me a video or presentation on how to be a good instructor, but the best way is to work with students. In my ITC my Instructor Trainers would pull the stupidest moves.... I would say "Man a student would never do that!" Well I was wrong. In fact students do stuff 10 times more stupid. But each time something happens I learn.... And I promise it is much more educational than watching a video on CPR or 1st Aid or rescues that I have seen 1,000 times before

 

[Teamcasa]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

I moved some of the training topics to this thread..

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[Cave Diver]

Thanks Dave.

 

[Walter]

So basically what I'm saying is, "It's not the agency, it's the instructor."

Basically what you're saying is several agencies have low standards (I agree) and it's up to the individual instructor to beef up the class well beyond what is required by some of the agencies. There are rare instructors who do exactly that, but they shouldn't have to do it. I can't buy the concept of letting agencies with poor standards off the hook for their lack of requirements. There are other agencies with higher standards. Poor standards are the fault of the agency that wrote and adopted them.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have never met anyone who told me they failed the cert course.

And you probably never will.

That does not mean that everyone passes.

"Failing" a course means that the course is time based: we will teach you something for a specific length of time and then measure the results.

For most agencies (there are some exceptions), scuba certification is standards based. We keep teaching until the student either passes or decides it isn't going to work.

Thus, I have had students who took an unusually long time to complete a course, and I have had students who decided scuba was not for them and left the program. I have never, however, given what you would call a failing grade--just incompletes.