Split from: Diver Death in Cayman

[Web Monkey]

It really comes down to this: Just because you are certified, does not mean you are qualified.

Believe it or not, all certified divers (including graduates of even the worst classes) are generally qualified to dive at some level, with some amount of supervision. New divers almost all realize their limitations and know they have never dived alone and probably aren't ready to, which is why they all want a "DiveMaster" on their dive.

A big problem is that there's a gap between the level of supervision they want and require and believe they're getting and what they actually get.

And in any case there is no way in this universe that a single DM can handle more than two divers that need a significant amount of attention, or one diver that needs a lot.

However, an even more insidious problem is that new divers don't realize that:

1. The DM might not even be a DM
2. No matter what his certification level is, he just might not posses the skills, capabilities or good judgement they expect and require.

A solution would be to either actually provide the level of supervision that would give the divers what they need and expect, or provide no supervision and tell everybody they're on their own.

Personally, I'd vote for the second one.

Terry

 

[fosterboxermom]

It's nice to tell them that, but I don't think I've ever seen a brand new diver with the balls to stand up to the instructor, DM or boat captain and say "No, we're not doing xxx, we're doing yyyy, or with the judgement to even know the risks of a proposed dive.

Terry

Terry,

True, especially if they were trained by PADI! And I say that because I never would have. (Oh, man am I going to get slammed by a PADI DM for this one):blinking:

 

[Steve50]

Terry,

True, especially if they were trained by PADI! And I say that because I never would have. (Oh, man am I going to get slammed by a PADI DM for this one):blinking:

why wait for a DM...generalizations like this are insulting to many... especially to Pros who care about what they are doing...

 

[fosterboxermom]

why wait for a DM...generalizations like this are insulting to many... especially to Pros who care about what they are doing...

I would like to see PADI do more training before giving out c cards. I don't like what PADI has become. Watching Pam on her dive she never should have been given a c card without more training. I can't say anything about Brendan because I was never his Buddy and didn't see him dive on a buddy level.

 

[Cave Diver]

I wasn't generalizing. It was meant for PADI.

It's a generalization because it implies that all divers trained through PADI have poor skills. While there are some glaring examples of poor training out there, it's not a problem that is confined to PADI alone. Look hard enough and you can find it among other agencies as well.

My training began with PADI and I hold about 5 certs through them. I received some solid training from my initial instructors that gave me a good foundation to build on when I moved into technical diving.

So basically what I'm saying is, "It's not the agency, it's the instructor."

 

[fosterboxermom]

It's a generalization because it implies that all divers trained through PADI have poor skills. While there are some glaring examples of poor training out there, it's not a problem that is confined to PADI alone. Look hard enough and you can find it among other agencies as well.

My training began with PADI and I hold about 5 certs through them. I received some solid training from my initial instructors that gave me a good foundation to build on when I moved into technical diving.

So basically what I'm saying is, "It's not the agency, it's the instructor."

I am asking this so I can learn. And I realize PADI is not alone. I think SSI is in the same boat as PADI. Does PADI evaluate their Instrustors? If they do then how can instructors that aren't training properly continue to teach? Read my post before this one about Pam.

 

[Cave Diver]

I am asking this so I can learn. And I realize PADI is not alone. I think SSI is in the same boat as PADI. Does PADI evaluate their Instrustors? If they do then how can instructors that aren't training properly continue to teach? Read my post before this one about Pam.

They are evaluated during their training before they are awarded their instructor rating. As fas as I know, there is no "periodic inspection" of instructors unless they are investigating an incident or complaint against them.

Because PADI is one of the largest agencies, they have more instructors. The more instructors and agency has, the higher the number of poor instructors is likely to be. Unfortunately, you never hear about the good instructors and their students, just the ppor ones. It's kinda like how the newspaper doesnt print stories about how many thousand planes land safely each day, they only print a story if one crashes.

Keep in mind, all the instructors must meet a minimum standard when training students and the students must show proficiency in the academics and skills. The difference between a good instructor and a poor instructor, is that a good instructor spends time reinforcing these skills so the students remember it for the rest of their life, even when they havent dove in a while. A poor instructor makes sure they remember it til the end of class, but the skills may not be ingrained deep enough or well enough for them to remember it 3 months later when they finally take that diving vacation.

This is a self perpetuating problem, because we have become an instant gratification society. Everyone wants things as cheap and as fast as they can get it and dive instruction is no different. Where there is a market demand, there will be someone who will fill it.

When a prospective new diver calls around about class and finds someone who will teach it in a weekend for $200 less than the person they just talked to, most don't question what is being sacrificed. Instead they brag about their shopping savvy and pat themselves on the back at how much time and money they saved.

It's not til much later that most divers realize that training is not about price, it's about value. Unfortunately for some, that realization comes too late.

 

[fosterboxermom]

They are evaluated during their training before they are awarded their instructor rating. As fas as I know, there is no "periodic inspection" of instructors unless they are investigating an incident or complaint against them.

Because PADI is one of the largest agencies, they have more instructors. The more instructors and agency has, the higher the number of poor instructors is likely to be.

Keep in mind, all the instructors must meet a minimum standard when training students and the students must show proficiency in the academics and skills. The difference between a good instructor and a poor instructor, is that a good instructor spends time reinforcing these skills so the students remember it for the rest of their life, even when they havent dove in a while. A poor instructor makes sure they remember it til the end of class, but the skills may not be ingrained deep enough or well enough for them to remember it 3 months later when they finally take that diving vacation.

This is a self perpetuating problem, because we have become an instant gratification society. Everyone wants things as cheap and as fast as they can get it and dive instruction is no different. Where there is a market demand, there will be someone who will fill it.

When a prospective new diver calls around about class and finds someone who will teach it in a weekend for $200 less than the person they just talked to, most don't question what is being sacrificed. Instead they brag about their shopping savvy and pat themselves on the back at how much time and money they saved.

It's not til much later that most divers realize that training is not about price, it's about value. Unfortunately for some, that realization comes too late.

It's unfortunate that Instructors don't have to do CME courses just as Nurses, Dr's and teachers do so they can continue to do the best at what they are trained to do. Like you said they have to meet the MINIMUM required of them. Most people wouldn't think to ask that question when shopping around for a dive class. Such as when you call a dive shop and ask "did you meet the MINIMUM requirements for your agency or did you EXCEED the requirements?" And as a consumer yes we look for a bargain because that is what we think we should do. We aren't on the TRAINING side of it. Plus the person on the phone is telling us you can be certified in two weekends and be diving on your next vacation. That sounds great to us and all for $200. bucks. Of course a novice person is going to take that deal. BUT if a GOOD instructor/sales person tells you on the phone, yes our class is more expensive and it will take you longer but this is what you will get out of it. You will have better skills, you will know what to expect where you dive and if you don't we won't certify you because we don't want you to DIE. I think some people would think twice if that option was posed to them.

 

[Cave Diver]

You will have better skills, you will know what to expect where you dive and if you don't we won't certify you because we don't want you to DIE. I think some people would think twice if that option was posed to them.

This is exactly where the problem comes in. Most people shopping for a class don't know what questions to ask when they call around and most shops dont likely have much time to go into lengthy sales pitches with every customer that calls. Some shops undoubtedly make a better effort than others, but like with any industry that tends to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[Cave Diver]

It's unfortunate that Instructors don't have to do CME courses just as Nurses, Dr's and teachers do so they can continue to do the best at what they are trained to do.

One of the reasons for this is that by and large, SCUBA is a self regulated industry. With the exception of DOT requirements for cylinders, there is pretty much no government involvement or regulations, so things run on the "honor system."