Spectators at Incident Today

[Rick Murchison]

Nothing is absolute. There may be a time when a picture or a video is appropriate and later useful. But usually the takers are just that - takers, and nuisances, and often obnoxious as well.
In general, during an emergency everyone needs to heed the old - and excellent - mantra: "Lead, follow, or get out of the way."
Rick

 

[TCDiver1]

For one thing, a 2 day Rescue class is all about teaching self-rescue skills, and giving divers a few tools to allow them to help their fellow divers should an incident occur. It is NOT about making your average diver into a professional rescuer.

Agree 100%. To extend that thought further, the rescue skills that are learned in Rescue Class are easily lost over time without regular practice. Regular practice helps develop muscle memory which in turn can help overcome the fog stress will cause. Without practice, rescue skills can and will degrade rather quickly.

Like Rick said, there are leaders, followers and get out the wayers. A wise person would take a long, hard, honest look at themselves to decide which one you are and act accordingly in a situation like this. Lest as a rescuer you become another that needs to be rescued.

 

[bamamedic]

TCDiver1, I like your avatar...is that your license tag?

 

[bsee65]

Nothing is absolute. There may be a time when a picture or a video is appropriate and later useful. But usually the takers are just that - takers, and nuisances, and often obnoxious as well.
In general, during an emergency everyone needs to heed the old - and excellent - mantra: "Lead, follow, or get out of the way."
Rick

I agree with what you say here, Rick. To me, it means that if the videographers are "out of the way" and they have a legal right to be filming, then let them film. It's certainly not helpful for some goon to provoke a side incident by continually trying to block the camera.

As a side note, how many people have jumped to look at linked videos of rescues when they are posted here yet still condemn these videographers?

We have several witnesses to this particular event participating in this thread. How obvious was it that this rescue attempt was a formality and doomed to failure from the start? Was it obvious to all present, including the filmers, or might they have thought they could be filming a heroic rescue?

 

[Rick Murchison]

Another aspect of a camera on-site is that many folks view it as nothing but a liability and will leave when otherwise they may be able to render life-saving aid.
On the whole, cameras and lawyers (acting as lawyers, not rescuers) at a mishap site are about as useful as tits on a boar.
Rick

 

[TSandM]

I also want to emphasize that even people with some rescue training are very likely NOT going to be calm, rational and optimally effective in a situation of high stress. I'm an ER doc, and I deal with resuscitation of cardiac arrest patients -- not every day, but often enough. But when a personal friend died diving, I know I was less than at the top of my game in assisting with the rescue. I think it would be very difficult to be dispassionate and calm when someone you know is dying.

We don't know what happened here, but these stories make me want to cry out: Everybody, get some training or some practice that allows you to control descents and ascents and KEEP YOUR TEAM TOGETHER. So very many diving accident stories begin with buddy separation . . . and often, we never really know what killed the diver who died. Which, of course, means we don't know whether someone being there could have done anything helpful. But one thing is for sure -- when they aren't there, they certainly can't.

 

[cruiser]

Videos can be used for good, too. When somebody lawyers up and the videos become a record of the event, the videos can also show what people did RIGHT, and DISPROVE claims of negligence by the suing party(ies).

 

[adurso]

Thiose who whip out cell phone cameras at an accident scene are ghouls; nothing more, nothing less.

They are not filming/photographing for posterity/legal use/lawsuit defense or anything else except to satisfy the same need as rubberneckers at any accident.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

A diver's doing no one a favor if he's at quarter capability due to stress. The whole stress and rescue courses are there so you can handle situations with a calm mind.

You have a very naive idea of what a Rescue class is teaching you. Mostly, it's about recognizing the symptoms leading up to the onset of an accident, and what steps you can take to break the chain of events so that the accident never happens. It's more about taking care of yourself than taking care of others. You will never learn enough in a Rescue class to qualify as an expert in how others are handling the situation.

No class can possibly cover every potential rescue scenario ... at best it provides you some tools to call on in a moment of need. A real rescue is nothing like what you practiced in class ... it's all about making spontaneous decisions, making use of available resources and reacting to circumstances that you cannot possibly anticipate.

Should they even be diving if they're so stressed they aren't be doing things by the book? Obviously situations differ, and you can't always do things EXACTLY how they're supposed to be done, but from what I heard of the recovery they towed him in a kayak, which is definately not what I was taught in my open dive class. Rescue breaths could have been administered during the transportation.

I guess you won't really learn what it's like until you have to face it yourself ... but rescues rarely happen "by the book". Every situation is unique, and you won't have an instructor standing there explaining to you what to expect and what to do about it. You have to make snap decisions under a ton of stress ... usually with incomplete knowledge of what's going on. And no matter what you do, you'll spend the next few days stressing out and second-guessing your every action ... because no matter what you do, you will always be able to sit back in the comfort of a chair, with a keyboard in front of you, and think of a "better" way to handle it later on.

It's one thing to be "rescuing" your buddy in a swimming pool or in 20 feet of water at your local training site ... and something else altogether to be down at depth looking at circumstances you didn't cover in class (there are plenty of those). It's another level altogether to be having to deal with someone who's mask is full of bloody froth, or who's eyes tell you before you ever make it to the surface that you aren't rescuing this person at all ... you are recovering their body, and nothing you do will be sufficient to comfort a grieving family.

Lamont has faced that situation, personally ... you haven't. He knows what it feels like to be towing a dead person to shore, and doing everything in his power to make her breathe again. You haven't. So please, PLEASE, don't presume to "correct" him. The real world is way different than anything you've ever been exposed to in a class ... or an internet forum. Try listening to someone who's actually been there.

And FWIW - some agencies have stopped teaching the efficacy of in-water rescue breaths. It has been demonstrated that getting a victim to shore or boat, where chest compressions can be quickly and effectively administered is far more useful ... and for this reason, using a kayak as a means to transport the victim quickly was a useful idea.

As for the filming, it's VERY important to document what happened. I'm NOT justifying what the reporter did, but I think we have to take a step back from our emotions sometimes and think about it.

I can only hope that you never have to face a real rescue situation yourself ... because I guarantee you that if you do, you will NOT be able to "step back from our emotions" ... you're just as human as the rest of us. And the last thing you're going to want is someone sticking a video camera in your face while you're doing your best to save someone's life. It never solves anything, and only complicates an already complicated situation.

When I first did my open water I do believe I was asked the question of whether to ditch the person's BC/tank/Regulator to the water and swim them to safety. I said yes and my instructor told me I was wrong. All of that is evidence, even if it IS cumbersome to haul with a person in critical danger, if not dead. Was there something wrong with the air? Was there a problem with the regulator? The BC? If you dump it there's the possibility it'll never be found and those questions won't be answered. Of course this doesn't have anything to do with videotaping the recovery, but it shows that you need to think about things, through the stress, and realize that it doesn't just end when the person is on shore/in a boat.

That is utter BS ... your first priority is to the PERSON. Equipment can be recovered later. If you have to, jettison the damn gear and get the person to a place where you can help them. You CAN'T help them in the water ... and towing all their gear might just cost you the time that would've made a difference between them living and dying.

Your instructor was wrong.

Basically, [/B]Was there something that could have been done during the recovery to help this man live?[/B] Take the jerk's footage and use it for good. I don't condone video taping people die because you're awe-struck by it. It's a serious situation and it needs to be handled with professionalism.

Most people who pull out their cell phones at an accident site aren't thinking of anything except the hope that their video will be the next one to go viral on YouTube ... or that they might be able to get their 15 minutes of fame on the local news that night. Their motives are anything but altruistic. As for using it as evidence of negligence ... it chills me to think that a diver would even want to go there, given the effect it may have on a diver's willingness to help in a rescue situation.

You'd better hope you never need help from someone who's worried that his every action is going to be video'ed and used against him in a court of law. Yes, we do tell people when they take a Rescue class that it's possible, and that no matter what they do their every action will be subject to scrutiny. But that scrutiny should come AFTER they've done everything they can to help the victim survive ... not at the expense of distracting them while they're trying to rescue somebody.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[The Chairman]

A diver's doing no one a favor if he's at quarter capability due to stress.

You don't have a good handle on stress. There is no class that can teach you how to handle stress and it is indeed a killer. Rescue classes are designed to train you to operate in spite of stress, but two to three days is not nearly enough to develop enough muscle memory to completely overcome it.

The unmitigated intrusion into our privacy is real and it presents an unhealthy reason to not get involved. We don't need these voyeurs discouraging would be rescuers or to add one more ounce of stress into the situation. Kudos to the peeps who confounded them out right.