Solo dives

[MXGratefulDiver]

If you have found yourself in multiple life-or-death situations, you should probably seriously reconsider your diving habits. There are times when buddies can be life savers, I am not debating that. My only concern was that you brought an out-of-context situation into a discussion on a solo diving mindset, which was irrelevant. I am glad you are still alive to present your perspective here and am happy to hear your serious situations have all been resolved in a, from what I can tell, pleasant manner.

It should be discussed and understood that one death is better than two before the dive if that situation could ever present itself.

Considering your published background, perhaps you should find out a little bit about the person you're addressing those comments to ... and possibly imagine some of the mental differences between diving in a cave vs the sort of diving you've been exposed to ... because otherwise your comments come across as seriously funny.

Kind've like someone who's learned third-grade arithmetic trying to teach mathematics to a calculus professor.

Although it should also be understood that Dan comes from a background that's by definition averse to the notion of solo diving ... and I don't always agree with his philosophy on that particular topic. But I'd never presume to say to him that he should reconsider his diving habits ... as he's probably forgotten more about diving than I'm ever likely to learn ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

This analogy certainly does not make much sense. If everyone dies on a dive, there is no hero. To that effect, the hero is the one killed by the other divers (or sacrifices himself) so they have enough air to survive. It seems you are suggesting that in a difficult situation, that everyone dies due to your high morals and that no attempt is made to conserve any life.

Each person on the team needs to be committed to the team. Not for just themself. There is no ONE hero. Everyone needs the same mindset. There is no room for someone out just for themself.

If you have found yourself in multiple life-or-death situations, you should probably seriously reconsider your diving habits.

I was in on the early days of technical diving...we were doing huge dives that had never been done before...there were occaisions when a solo diver mindset would have killed someone, but our buddy diver mindset solved the problem, and everyone was fine...this is what I meant. Obviously when George and JJ did the first 3 mile penetration into Wakulla, a huge cave dive like this meant they had significat life and death choices in all stages of planning, and their ability to count on each other 3 miles back in, is a huge life and death choice.
We are talking about the commitment required at a major exploration diver level, and the commitment required at a recreational level. There are some good similarities, and there are some differences....My reference to my own experiences was only to indicate that I know what the experience feels like first hand, and how there was absolutely no question in my mind about how to help my buddy. I think the solo diver mentality would have TAUGHT the nonsense about save yourself, let your buddies worry about taking care of themselves.

There are times when buddies can be life savers, I am not debating that. My only concern was that you brought an out-of-context situation into a discussion on a solo diving mindset, which was irrelevant. I am glad you are still alive to present your perspective here and am happy to hear your serious situations have all been resolved in a, from what I can tell, pleasant manner.

I agree this digresses a bit....but the thread does include the moral issue of self or buddy...the one poster who recounted the cave incident with the ideas about maybe having to kill his buddies, was most likely "taught" this kind of thinking or problem solving by his instructor Bill Rennaker. Rennaker was well known for this kind of problem solving, as a search for him on the Cavers List from aquanaut.com would reveal. If this was a teaching issue, I would not be blaming the poster for this thinking, I'd be blaming Rennaker. Fortunately, the poster made the proper choices and did not kill his buddies. Even with bad advice, he did the right thing

It should be discussed and understood that one death is better than two before the dive if that situation could ever present itself.

I disagree. Would you kill your wife to save yourself? Would she kill you to save herself? There is what is right, and what is expedient.
With proper planning, there should never be a one death instead of 2 death question.


In more useful scenarios where this solo diver mindset has come up in the past.....

there are times when a diver passes out on a deep dive..tox, or something...the buddy can either blow off huge amounts of deco and save the unconscious buddy, or let the buddy die.... The DIR choice has always been to save the buddy--blow off the deco if needed. It is one reason we would limit a 280 foot ocean dive to 25 minutes....If we remained down a full hour, blowing off most of the deco would kill or maim both...with the duration limit ( planning), the acceptable risk comes into play.



Regards,
DanV

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Creating a solo diver mindset destroys the team mindset, and fosters a level of self indulgence that borders on the disgusting.

This is the part I can't say that I agree with ... I see a solo mindset and a team mindset the way I see two unrelated languages. It can be difficult making the transition from one to the other unless you dive enough to be able to use both regularly ... and therefore develop the ability to switch from one to the other.

I can say that when I started solo diving, I definitely noticed an impact on my ability to be a good dive buddy. It wasn't the skills or mindset that were affected ... but the habits one forms makes it more difficult to transition from one mindset to the other. It takes effort ... and a willingness to recognize that you need to apply that effort.

Diving's a very habitual activity in that we get used to doing things a certain way and fall back on those habits when we dive. The habits we develop as solo divers don't play well with the habits needed to be a good dive buddy.

The more demanding the dive, the more you're going to rely on habits at one level or another because of the increased demands of task-loading ... and the harder it's going to be to transition from one mindset to the other.

This is why people who solo dive a lot generally don't make the best choice of dive buddies ... even if they want to be, there's almost a "language barrier" to overcome between the two diving styles.

But it can be done ... it just takes more effort than most folks are willing to put into it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

I couldn't agree with you more. Choosing a buddy is a very important task. This might be a little different than the choice to have a buddy and so i will explain. Choosing a good buddy is awesome. Choosing someone to be your buddy is not as awesome when that buddy is attempting to steal your gas.
So i make my point as this: make sure you can do the dive you plan. as #1. then choose a good buddy that can do the dive with you and provide assistance when needed. as #2.

I think that the misguided assumption that solo diving mentality is bad is related to the fear of solo diving when this is completely separate issue.
If i look at a dive and realize that I can't do the dive on my own, do you think it would be a good thing for me to assume that I can do the dive if I have a buddy along because then I will be safe?
.... this is where I have taken issue with this so that I don't believe we are truely arguing about this, only agreeing with different lingo.


I dive with the team mentality and only wish to further discussion on a topic brought up by an instructor I had.
You seem like you would be a great diver to team up with. Your from Lake Worth?
I have a uncle there. Maybe some day we could buddy up sometime. Hope the devils advocate wasn't to much for you.

Let me know when your going to visit. I dive pretty much every weekend, and sometimes mid-week. It should be easy to get you out on a dive with us.

Regards,
DanV

 

[Diver003]

Considering your published background, perhaps you should find out a little bit about the person you're addressing those comments to ... and possibly imagine some of the mental differences between diving in a cave vs the sort of diving you've been exposed to ... because otherwise your comments come across as seriously funny.

Kind've like someone who's learned third-grade arithmetic trying to teach mathematics to a calculus professor.

Although it should also be understood that Dan comes from a background that's by definition averse to the notion of solo diving ... and I don't always agree with his philosophy on that particular topic. But I'd never presume to say to him that he should reconsider his diving habits ... as he's probably forgotten more about diving than I'm ever likely to learn ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I certainly knew nothing of Dan's background prior to my comments, but my original comment I still think is valid regardless of background. I just wanted to point out that saving one life was better than saving none, which was implied in regards to instruction and solo mindset. This is really a matter of opinion, as has been expressed by Dan from an opposite stance. I don't have a disrespect for him - just a difference of opinion we'd have to sort out before a serious dive (should I ever reach that level).

 

[Diver003]

Each person on the team needs to be committed to the team. Not for just themself. There is no ONE hero. Everyone needs the same mindset. There is no room for someone out just for themself.

I agree with this 100%. The only exception I could foresee was an imminent life or death situation. As Bob pointed out, I don't have the training to really discuss this as it applies to real-world situations, but my opinion really stems from my belief that saving life is better than not.

I was in on the early days of technical diving...we were doing huge dives that had never been done before...there were occaisions when a solo diver mindset would have killed someone, but our buddy diver mindset solved the problem, and everyone was fine...this is what I meant. Obviously when George and JJ did the first 3 mile penetration into Wakulla, a huge cave dive like this meant they had significat life and death choices in all stages of planning, and their ability to count on each other 3 miles back in, is a huge life and death choice.
We are talking about the commitment required at a major exploration diver level, and the commitment required at a recreational level. There are some good similarities, and there are some differences....My reference to my own experiences was only to indicate that I know what the experience feels like first hand, and how there was absolutely no question in my mind about how to help my buddy. I think the solo diver mentality would have TAUGHT the nonsense about save yourself, let your buddies worry about taking care of themselves.

Your experience is truly outstanding and my comments are, even to me, a bit entertaining knowing your background now. You raise many valid points here as well.

I agree this digresses a bit....but the thread does include the moral issue of self or buddy...the one poster who recounted the cave incident with the ideas about maybe having to kill his buddies, was most likely "taught" this kind of thinking or problem solving by his instructor Bill Rennaker. Rennaker was well known for this kind of problem solving, as a search for him on the Cavers List from aquanaut.com would reveal. If this was a teaching issue, I would not be blaming the poster for this thinking, I'd be blaming Rennaker. Fortunately, the poster made the proper choices and did not kill his buddies. Even with bad advice, he did the right thing

The diver did do the right thing, and I, too, am glad

I disagree. Would you kill your wife to save yourself? Would she kill you to save herself? There is what is right, and what is expedient.
With proper planning, there should never be a one death instead of 2 death question.

I agree - with proper planning this should be an extremely rare scenario.

In more useful scenarios where this solo diver mindset has come up in the past.....

there are times when a diver passes out on a deep dive..tox, or something...the buddy can either blow off huge amounts of deco and save the unconscious buddy, or let the buddy die.... The DIR choice has always been to save the buddy--blow off the deco if needed. It is one reason we would limit a 280 foot ocean dive to 25 minutes....If we remained down a full hour, blowing off most of the deco would kill or maim both...with the duration limit ( planning), the acceptable risk comes into play.



Regards,
DanV

I enjoy hearing your personal experience and knowledge, it really does open my eyes more to things I hadn't even considered. I still stand by my first post, though. I think one life saved is better than none. I'm happy to disagree on this matter and know now it will be something to consider before pursuing my diving to a higher level.

 

[danvolker]

I agree with this 100%. The only exception I could foresee was an imminent life or death situation. As Bob pointed out, I don't have the training to really discuss this as it applies to real-world situations, but my opinion really stems from my belief that saving life is better than not.



Your experience is truly outstanding and my comments are, even to me, a bit entertaining knowing your background now. You raise many valid points here as well.



The diver did do the right thing, and I, too, am glad




I agree - with proper planning this should be an extremely rare scenario.



I enjoy hearing your personal experience and knowledge, it really does open my eyes more to things I hadn't even considered. I still stand by my first post, though. I think one life saved is better than none. I'm happy to disagree on this matter and know now it will be something to consider before pursuing my diving to a higher level.

If you ever get the chance to do some dives with some GUE people, use the chance. When you get the first hand actual experience of what this form of buddy and team based diving is like, I don't think the experience will leave you the same--for the next internet discussion

REgards,
DanV

 

[Garth]

Do you know any GUE instructors near Charlotte NC?

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Do you know any GUE instructors near Charlotte NC?

Bob Sherwood isn't too far.

 

[Garth]

New York is close to North Carolina? i also saw that he will teach out of Florida too. Am I correct on this.