Solo dives

[Garth]

Haha, he didn't say to dive without an SPG or something crazy... he said to be in control of your own diving.

 

[knowone]

I feel retarded enough when I go to get my J valves filled without you having a lend as well.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

"The most dangerous thing you can take in the water with you is a buddy."
If you dive with a buddy because it makes it more fun then take the buddy.
If you dive with a buddy because it makes you feel safer then you are not a safe diver to buddy and I would rather make the dive solo.
If self reliance was taught as a priority rather than just the current buddy system then diving safety would improve. If you think diving with a buddy makes this a safe sport then you a mistaken, all it does is put two lives at risk rather than just one.

That is only true if you never made the effort to learn proper buddy skills ... or do a poor job of choosing dive buddies.

The most significant problem with the buddy system is that there isn't enough emphasis on buddy skills in the entry-levels of dive training. You're told that you should dive with a buddy, but not really taught what that means. New divers are fairly task-loaded just managing their buoyancy skills ... and the majority come out of their first certification classes barely comfortable to breathe underwater, much less manage simple things like keeping track of their air or the whereabouts of their dive buddy. Rather than techniques, you're given slogans like "plan your dive and dive your plan", "always dive with a buddy", or "end the dive with 500 psi" with little effort to teach you how to do those things. As a result, most folks either learn these things after class is over by getting out and diving ... or they never manage to learn them at all. The buddy system is exacerbated by the fact that the majority of divers only dive occasionally, and usually in places where they go out on a boat with a bunch of people who dive as a herd, following a divemaster ... so they never really get the opportunity to learn and practice proper buddy skills.

Being a dive buddy means more than just getting in the water with another diver. It means getting comfortable enough with your basic skills to have the mental bandwidth to pay attention to what's going on around you. It means discussing the dive with your buddy beforehand, getting in the water with a clear understanding of what to expect from each other, and applying the self-discipline to stick with what you agreed to. And it means a mental commitment to conducting the dive as "our dive" rather than "my dive". And that commitment must apply to all members of the buddy team. You simply cannot approach the dive with a "my dive" mentality and be a good dive buddy ... no matter what your skills happen to be.

When approached with the proper attitude and skill set, the buddy system is the safest way to dive. But like any other system ... when misapplied it just falls apart and ends up being more of a liability than an asset.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Contempt of the buddy system should never be a reason to solo dive.

If a diver is unhappy with the capacity of their existing buddy, then find a new one... or take responsibility by mentoring and developing that buddy.

If pmenear thinks that there isn't another diver in the ocean that would be a compliment to dive with, then his arrogance obviously knows no bounds and it's most likely that no other diver would want to dive with him...

If you are diving with a buddy and not having a good time, it's entirely possible that it's not your buddy's fault ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[danvolker]

"The most dangerous thing you can take in the water with you is a buddy."
If you dive with a buddy because it makes you feel safer then you are not a safe diver to buddy and I would rather make the dive solo.
If self reliance was taught as a priority rather than just the current buddy system then diving safety would improve..QUOTE]


First, perfection of basic skills will mean that the diver IS not constantly in need of assistance--that the diver will be able to handle most contingecies that could be planned for. You can call this self reliance, but it is really just actually having the basic skills...if you don't have the basic skills, obviously you wont be able to be self reliant either. When I say Basic Skills, I do NOT mean what is pandered about as Basic Open Water Scuba certiifaction skills...this is a by-product of making scuba more marketable, by modularizine the classes and skills required to become a diver.
There are obvious basic skills all divers should have. Without these skills, the diver is at best a "dependant buddy", but more practically should be considered a person with a "Learner's permit", who wants to become a diver.

The idea that each diver should be a competent "solo diver", and this meaning they are completely self reliant, is defective on many levels.
It has already been shown that the biggest adventure dives are completed safely by team based diving ( buddy diving), and that individuals trying dive far less difficult while solo, experienced high fatality rates, and many near misses as well.

Each of us has his or her own "Big Adventure Dive" that we want to do...this means getting somewhere near the maximum range of our abilities, for the maximum intensity of the dive experieince. Using the team based, buddy diving concept, as long as each buddy actually has the skills--the essentiual skills...then the team approach will make them safer, and allow them to have more fun...and to share this fun.

Creating a solo diver mindset destroys the team mindset, and fosters a level of self indulgence that borders on the disgusting. One poster even discussed the option of killing his buddies for their air in a cave diving scenario--this polluted thinking comes from instruction where the diver is only caring about themselves, and where no real planning took place prior to the dive, no thoughts to contingecies, and without this basic skill set of planning, the diver is not really a diver. They could not be safe solo, or as a member of a team ( except as a member entirely dependant on others, which is certainly NOT what we are suggesting).


DanV

 

[gcs118]

One poster even discussed the option of killing his buddies for their air in a cave diving scenario--this polluted thinking comes from instruction where the diver is only caring about themselves, and where no real planning took place prior to the dive, no thoughts to contingecies, and without this basic skill set of planning, the diver is not really a diver. They could not be safe solo, or as a member of a team ( except as a member entirely dependant on others, which is certainly NOT what we are suggesting).


DanV

Although you make many valid points and I tend to agree with your point of view, this concluding comment seemed a bit too much though. If I am thinking of the same post, the diver was potentially facing a true life or death situation. Killing buddies for air? Extreme. However, one death is better than two (or three). I just wanted to point out that this scenario does not really fit into the whole solo mindset debate given the overall parameters of the situation. There's a point where survival becomes more of a priority than team skills, especially when it is impossible for everyone to get out alive.

 

[Garth]

I agree and Danvolker may have lost his mind or maybe he is actually vomitting right now. His words are a little bit elitist for me.

 

[danvolker]

Although you make many valid points and I tend to agree with your point of view, this concluding comment seemed a bit too much though. If I am thinking of the same post, the diver was potentially facing a true life or death situation. Killing buddies for air? Extreme. However, one death is better than two (or three). I just wanted to point out that this scenario does not really fit into the whole solo mindset debate given the overall parameters of the situation. There's a point where survival becomes more of a priority than team skills, especially when it is impossible for everyone to get out alive.

This could be a topic that goes well beyond typical buddy diving discussions....it is the type of thing that could be dabated ad nauseum in a college philosophy class.

To me, it would be immorral to kill your buddy so that you could live. Kant would not allow it, Hume would not, and only the most simplistic like the "Greatest Good for Greatest Number" would "justify" such an act.

This does say a lot about who you are...the hero in war that saves his platoon at the cost of his own life, or some war based alternative to match the "kill your buddies to live scenario"... I think you should pick your buddies from the hero gene pool, not the cowardly one. If you can't live with the choices this leaves you when the sh%t hits the fan, then you should not have put yourself that far into jeopardy ( gotten in to a dive so far over your head--risks you were never really willing to take).

I have been in multiple scenarios on deep dives in my life, where real life and death choices were mandated....at no time did my buddies or I ever consider NOT committing ourselves 100% to the team solution.
George Irvine always said that the single most important gear choice you make is your buddy. Their choice of you is the same. You need to know this person, and any adventure dive you consider, you need to figure out how far you could go with the responsibilities, and how far they would go for you.

While this means a lot more 4 miles into a 300 foot deep cave than it does on a recreational scuba dive into the ocean, the idea of knowing what you could be in store for on a given dive, and what each buddy would do, ahead of time, is still relavant.

Regards,
Dan

 

[gcs118]

This could be a topic that goes well beyond typical buddy diving discussions....it is the type of thing that could be dabated ad nauseum in a college philosophy class.

To me, it would be immorral to kill your buddy so that you could live. Kant would not allow it, Hume would not, and only the most simplistic like the "Greatest Good for Greatest Number" would "justify" such an act.

Although I study literature and philosophy, this is not the place I'd like to discuss my views on life nor is it pertinent to the discussion.

This does say a lot about who you are...the hero in war that saves his platoon at the cost of his own life, or some war based alternative to match the "kill your buddies to live scenario"... I think you should pick your buddies from the hero gene pool, not the cowardly one. If you can't live with the choices this leaves you when the sh%t hits the fan, then you should not have put yourself that far into jeopardy ( gotten in to a dive so far over your head--risks you were never really willing to take).

This analogy certainly does not make much sense. If everyone dies on a dive, there is no hero. To that effect, the hero is the one killed by the other divers (or sacrifices himself) so they have enough air to survive. It seems you are suggesting that in a difficult situation, that everyone dies due to your high morals and that no attempt is made to conserve any life.

I have been in multiple scenarios on deep dives in my life, where real life and death choices were mandated....at no time did my buddies or I ever consider NOT committing ourselves 100% to the team solution.
George Irvine always said that the single most important gear choice you make is your buddy. Their choice of you is the same. You need to know this person, and any adventure dive you consider, you need to figure out how far you could go with the responsibilities, and how far they would go for you.

If you have found yourself in multiple life-or-death situations, you should probably seriously reconsider your diving habits. There are times when buddies can be life savers, I am not debating that. My only concern was that you brought an out-of-context situation into a discussion on a solo diving mindset, which was irrelevant. I am glad you are still alive to present your perspective here and am happy to hear your serious situations have all been resolved in a, from what I can tell, pleasant manner.

While this means a lot more 4 miles into a 300 foot deep cave than it does on a recreational scuba dive into the ocean, the idea of knowing what you could be in store for on a given dive, and what each buddy would do, ahead of time, is still relavant.

Regards,
Dan

It should be discussed and understood that one death is better than two before the dive if that situation could ever present itself.

 

[Garth]

This could be a topic that goes well beyond typical buddy diving discussions....it is the type of thing that could be dabated ad nauseum in a college philosophy class.

To me, it would be immorral to kill your buddy so that you could live. Kant would not allow it, Hume would not, and only the most simplistic like the "Greatest Good for Greatest Number" would "justify" such an act.

This does say a lot about who you are...the hero in war that saves his platoon at the cost of his own life, or some war based alternative to match the "kill your buddies to live scenario"... I think you should pick your buddies from the hero gene pool, not the cowardly one. If you can't live with the choices this leaves you when the sh%t hits the fan, then you should not have put yourself that far into jeopardy ( gotten in to a dive so far over your head--risks you were never really willing to take).

I have been in multiple scenarios on deep dives in my life, where real life and death choices were mandated....at no time did my buddies or I ever consider NOT committing ourselves 100% to the team solution.
George Irvine always said that the single most important gear choice you make is your buddy. Their choice of you is the same. You need to know this person, and any adventure dive you consider, you need to figure out how far you could go with the responsibilities, and how far they would go for you.

While this means a lot more 4 miles into a 300 foot deep cave than it does on a recreational scuba dive into the ocean, the idea of knowing what you could be in store for on a given dive, and what each buddy would do, ahead of time, is still relavant.

Regards,
Dan

I couldn't agree with you more. Choosing a buddy is a very important task. This might be a little different than the choice to have a buddy and so i will explain. Choosing a good buddy is awesome. Choosing someone to be your buddy is not as awesome when that buddy is attempting to steal your gas.
So i make my point as this: make sure you can do the dive you plan. as #1. then choose a good buddy that can do the dive with you and provide assistance when needed. as #2.

I think that the misguided assumption that solo diving mentality is bad is related to the fear of solo diving when this is completely separate issue.
If i look at a dive and realize that I can't do the dive on my own, do you think it would be a good thing for me to assume that I can do the dive if I have a buddy along because then I will be safe?
.... this is where I have taken issue with this so that I don't believe we are truely arguing about this, only agreeing with different lingo.


I dive with the team mentality and only wish to further discussion on a topic brought up by an instructor I had.
You seem like you would be a great diver to team up with. Your from Lake Worth?
I have a uncle there. Maybe some day we could buddy up sometime. Hope the devils advocate wasn't to much for you.