Solo Death Criticism

[Mark Michaud SELAUSAR]

Yeah...next time I'm bringing up the rear on the way in!

I'm gonna wear 85's instead of 95's, and find the exit before I get to it.

 

[Doc Harry]

This is Solo diving. We've taken it up a few notches. We're not following the rules. Some of us will undoughtily die doing it.

Right on!

 

[b1gcountry]

Solo diving didn't kill this guy, but a buddy saying "this is a baddddd idea" might have saved his life. He died because he violated at least 2 rules and when the SHTF, he didn't have the training to fall back on.

These were my thoughts on this as well. Buddy diving is stressed and ingrained into the diving mindset exactly for people like this. If you are diving by yourself because you can't find anyone else that is willing to do the dives you want to do (with you as a buddy), then you might want to re-think your plan a little.

As to the Into the Wild reference, I liked the movie. Didn't read the book. I'm not too familiar with the incident, but if it happened at Vortex, it seems like the guy wasn't looking too hard to get away from people. Vortex is maybe Florida's most commercial spring.

Tom

 

[AfterDark]

Right..but the training can introduce you to possible or likely issues that might come up and provide the knowledge needed on how to resolve those.

I'm not too sure about that, sometimes people that do an activity long and often can impart some very parctical and useful information that you might not learn in a formal course. I tend to think of training as making it easier to really learn X. I fall right into that niche. Night,wreck,deep diving all learned by doing, with those that did it regularly. Solo diving was learned in small steps. The experience gained by engaging in other kinds of diving, the occasional seperation, gave me the confidence to dive solo after many hours in the water. One of the many things that make me chuckle on SB is when someone posts they have 25 dives and are they ready for X?

IMO the OP isn't far off the mark and has been flamed too excess. This particular event maybe a bad example but in the general sense he is not wrong. I'm living proof after 40 years and 1,932 dives many of which I still am not certified for, I remain OW certified.

 

[MikeSK]

If you have access to mentors who are paragons of the subject, then that's one thing. I don't know a single cave diver, and I suspect that a good portion of the people don't either. I'm just more comfortable take a class and learning from those that are trained.

I agree that most of the specialties don't need a formal class. Night, deep, wreck etc all are easy to do if your smart enough and at least read up on the subject a little to know what you might encounter and/or need to change equipment-wise if anything.

However...formal training in Solo can introduce a person to several things that are different than rec diving that they might not be aware of. (i haven't taken the class, so have no idea really what's covered ) But..if it even alerts me to one thing i wasnt aware of..its worth it.

Cave IMO is different. Might just be because of my own...paranioa as to what is a totally different environment and different equip requirements, but I personally would never even dream of attempting such a thing on my own. Or with a stranger i meet on the site of the cave who says "sure, I can teach you how to do caves"

Instructors of course are "strangers" as well...but at least you have a sense that they're formally trained.

 

[AfterDark]

If you have access to mentors who are paragons of the subject, then that's one thing. I don't know a single cave diver, and I suspect that a good portion of the people don't either. I'm just more comfortable take a class and learning from those that are trained.

I agree that most of the specialties don't need a formal class. Night, deep, wreck etc all are easy to do if your smart enough and at least read up on the subject a little to know what you might encounter and/or need to change equipment-wise if anything.

However...formal training in Solo can introduce a person to several things that are different than rec diving that they might not be aware of. (i haven't taken the class, so have no idea really what's covered ) But..if it even alerts me to one thing i wasnt aware of..its worth it.

Cave IMO is different. Might just be because of my own...paranioa as to what is a totally different environment and different equip requirements, but I personally would never even dream of attempting such a thing on my own. Or with a stranger i meet on the site of the cave who says "sure, I can teach you how to do caves"

Instructors of course are "strangers" as well...but at least you have a sense that they're formally trained.

Diving with strangers was only mentioned by you. Sounds silly to me.

I can't imagine taking formal training in anything and learning nothing from it. I also don't think formal training completely prepares one to perform X. IMO a newly certified person is a trainee.

 

[MikeSK]

Well..by definition a stranger is someone you don't know right?

the point i was trying to make is this: Unless you already know someone who can mentor you in cave diving...how do you learn?

You certainly don't learn by strapping on a single tank, breaking the lock on a gate and heading in. Apparently this guy got the key to the gate without having any certs. That to me says liability on the part of the owners but w/e. or maybe they checked his logbook.

No..you learn by 1) networking in a dive group and finding a mentor or 2) taking formal classes.

And i didn't say you couldn't learn anything from taking classes on night/deep/wreck etc. You can. And i did. But those aren't nearly as necessary as cave. especially Night because all youre really doing is diving in the dark. with a couple lights. No big revelations there.

 

[AfterDark]

Well..by definition a stranger is someone you don't know right?

the point i was trying to make is this: Unless you already know someone who can mentor you in cave diving...how do you learn?

You certainly don't learn by strapping on a single tank, breaking the lock on a gate and heading in. Apparently this guy got the key to the gate without having any certs. That to me says liability on the part of the owners but w/e. or maybe they checked his logbook.

No..you learn by 1) networking in a dive group and finding a mentor or 2) taking formal classes.

And i didn't say you couldn't learn anything from taking classes on night/deep/wreck etc. You can. And i did. But those aren't nearly as necessary as cave. especially Night because all youre really doing is diving in the dark. with a couple lights. No big revelations there.

I didn't mean to imply you said anything about not learning in formal training sorry.
I was just trying to make the point that I'm not making light of formal training or saying its not useful. When I read the OP what I got out of it was that there are other ways to learn, one of them being the same scenario you described mentors and such, but no putting a tank on and going into a unknown advanced cave is not one of them. I didn't get that from the A&I thread, or that the OP of this thread was advocating doing such a thing. Nothing said it was the deceased 1st cave dive at least that I saw. It may have been his 100th for all I know. He may have more cave diving experience than some posting here I agree cave diving is different its where Murphy lives and shouldn't be taken lightly.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Apparently this guy got the key to the gate without having any certs. That to me says liability on the part of the owners but w/e. or maybe they checked his logbook.

Apparently not ... it appears he managed to jimmie the gate and put his own lock on there prior to this dive, so he could circumvent the need to get a key from the owner.

I'd hate to see this turn into a liability issue for the site owner ... because there is no evidence that the owner allowed this young man access beyond where OW divers are allowed to go.

This fellow was hell-bent on doing what he did, regardless of what safeguards were in place and regardless of the fact that he'd been told he wasn't qualified for the type of diving he was doing. And so the responsibility for his death lies solely and squarely on his shoulders.

You can't "fool-proof" anything from sufficiently determined fools ... and everything I read about this case smacks of foolishness on the part of the deceased. To my concern, the only liability here is his.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MikeSK]

Apparently not ... it appears he managed to jimmie the gate and put his own lock on there prior to this dive, so he could circumvent the need to get a key from the owner.

I'd hate to see this turn into a liability issue for the site owner ... because there is no evidence that the owner allowed this young man access beyond where OW divers are allowed to go.

This fellow was hell-bent on doing what he did, regardless of what safeguards were in place and regardless of the fact that he'd been told he wasn't qualified for the type of diving he was doing. And so the responsibility for his death lies solely and squarely on his shoulders.

You can't "fool-proof" anything from sufficiently determined fools ... and everything I read about this case smacks of foolishness on the part of the deceased. To my concern, the only liability here is his.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Wow..that's terrible he would do that. I thought he got the key cause someone mentioned that the owners couldnt find the key the next day or something. That may have been another accident, im not sure.

It almost seems like he wanted to commit suicide.