So, what is the point of AOW???

[SparticleBrane]

My problem with AOW is that most of the thing in it aren't adequate, or I feel they should be taught in OW...

 

[daniel f aleman]

Let's continue the talking points: what of AOW standards should be tought in OW? And what do you find inadequate of AOW?

 

[Nick_W]

My problem with AOW is that most of the thing in it aren't adequate, or I feel they should be taught in OW...

I don't think they aren't adequate, I just think there are too many instructors/shops who are "diver factories" just seeing how many they can pump out per week. So it gets to a point with some where a student doesn't have to demonstrate mastery of a skill as much as he/she just has to go through the motions and give the illusion of mastery.

I would also be interested in hearing what you think AOW contains that should be taught in OW.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Just a few things off the top of my head -- night diving, deeper diving, navigation. I think those should be included in OW. They're not particularly difficult and wouldn't take too much time to add to the curriculum.
The main thing I feel that is inadequate in AOW is how the deeper dives usually seem to be conducted. "Dive deep, back on the boat with 500. Don't run out of air." Most people don't seem to have any sort of gas management taught.
Perhaps my main hangup is the attitude of most instructors -- "You did great!" when the students actually suck.

I absolutely recognize that there are fantastic instructors who teach way beyond the basics, but I also know they're few and far between. Daniel from what I've seen you post, I'd venture to say that you're one of the rare types.

 

[SparticleBrane]

I don't think they aren't adequate, I just think there are too many instructors/shops who are "diver factories" just seeing how many they can pump out per week. So it gets to a point with some where a student doesn't have to demonstrate mastery of a skill as much as he/she just has to go through the motions and give the illusion of mastery.

Bingo, we have a winner!

I'd say that my dream OW course would be a few months long and cover everything that's currently taught in OW, nitrox AOW, and rescue. But hey, I'm not an instructor, so what do I know?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Just a few things off the top of my head -- night diving, deeper diving, navigation. I think those should be included in OW. They're not particularly difficult and wouldn't take too much time to add to the curriculum.
The main thing I feel that is inadequate in AOW is how the deeper dives usually seem to be conducted. "Dive deep, back on the boat with 500. Don't run out of air." Most people don't seem to have any sort of gas management taught.
Perhaps my main hangup is the attitude of most instructors -- "You did great!" when the students actually suck.

I absolutely recognize that there are fantastic instructors who teach way beyond the basics, but I also know they're few and far between. Daniel from what I've seen you post, I'd venture to say that you're one of the rare types.

Which brings up some interesting points of implementation ...

- How long should an OW class take?
- How many hours of pool time should be involved?
- How many dives should be involved?
- How much should it cost?

I believe, Sparticle, that you took your OW class as part of a college curriculum, yes? How did the questions above apply to your class?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bingo, we have a winner!

I'd say that my dream OW course would be a few months long and cover everything that's currently taught in OW, nitrox AOW, and rescue. But hey, I'm not an instructor, so what do I know?

Add DIR F to that and you've just described the GUE OW class that's been talked about for the past five years or so.

What are your thoughts on why that class isn't yet available?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Nick_W]

Just a few things off the top of my head -- night diving, deeper diving, navigation. I think those should be included in OW. They're not particularly difficult and wouldn't take too much time to add to the curriculum.

There is basic navigation in an OW course. Very basic because the OW course is a very basic course. AOW just goes into more depth (pun intended).

As for night diving and "deep" diving. I kind of think its a good idea to have a seperate course for those. Give people a chance to get comfortable in the kiddie pool, then bring them to the deep end and let them play.

The main thing I feel that is inadequate in AOW is how the deeper dives usually seem to be conducted. "Dive deep, back on the boat with 500. Don't run out of air." Most people don't seem to have any sort of gas management taught.
Perhaps my main hangup is the attitude of most instructors -- "You did great!" when the students actually suck.

Well, now we're in diver factory territory.

Bingo, we have a winner!

I'd say that my dream OW course would be a few months long and cover everything that's currently taught in OW, nitrox AOW, and rescue. But hey, I'm not an instructor, so what do I know?

If my OW course was like that I would probably only have about two students a year. And those guys would be waaaaay overqualified for that cruise dive on their honeymoon. Now, if someone came to me and said they wanted to learn all of those things, I would certainly start the process. But I would require they have a few dives under their belt befor moving from one step to the next. I'm not going to train someone on rescue, for example, until they've proven to me they can handle themselves as a diver.

As for length, the length of my course isn't set in stone. I've had people fly through it with a clear mastery of the skills and I've had people who took as long as six months to master the skills. I've also refunded people's money and told them I wouldn't sign my name to their card. Again, one of the benefits of not relying upon my classes as a primary source of income.

 

[SparticleBrane]

Which brings up some interesting points of implementation ...

- How long should an OW class take?
- How many hours of pool time should be involved?
- How many dives should be involved?
- How much should it cost?

I believe, Sparticle, that you took your OW class as part of a college curriculum, yes? How did the questions above apply to your class?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Correct, I did. I will readily admit that there were a few places lacking, but I received a good underlying foundation and trim and buoyancy.
Nitrox was taught, and basic rescue towing was included.
If you went on a particular certification trip, you went on a night dive. If you took the rescue class, you went on a night dive regardless. In my class we had the option of doing 8 dives. I did 6 due to some other issues.
Navigation was included.
Deep was not included, nor was much in the way of gas planning. SAC rates and how to calculate it was included, but it was applied in terms of gas planning.
Video and critiquing WAS included, and I wouldn't personally consider teaching a class without it (if I were an instructor).

The bottom line is that running a class such as that is $$$$$$, and people want cheap. The class I just outlined isn't feasible for most people, instructors or students.

Going back to the dive shop argument in the other thread -- I firmly believe that if we have divers who are better trained, dive shops would have more repeat customers. The mentality of a $200 class and then $2,500 worth of gear, and then the customer never dives again, has to go.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

The bottom line is that running a class such as that is $$$$$$, and people want cheap. The class I just outlined isn't feasible for most people, instructors or students.

Going back to the dive shop argument in the other thread -- I firmly believe that if we have divers who are better trained, dive shops would have more repeat customers. The mentality of a $200 class and then $2,500 worth of gear, and then the customer never dives again, has to go.

All of this is true ... especially the first paragraph. We got to where we are today because that's what the customer demanded. In a free market, that's what ultimately determines the product or service you provide.

Wanna know why I no longer teach OW classes? Because no dive shop could afford to offer the class I wanted to teach, and very few people really want to take it.

I do what I can in AOW ... but there's not exactly a waiting list of motivated customers out there beating on my door to take it. Those who do are a joy to teach ... they seek me out because they're eager to learn. But they're a very small minority of divers.

Most people want quick and cheap. They don't care if they never learn how to dive properly ... and you cannot force people to buy a product they don't want, even if it is in their best interest.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)