So what is NOT covered in open water cert that should be?

[WVDiver]

reefraff,
Isn't that thirds rule a little stiff for open water, I wouldn't want to be held to that.

But..................... you'll die.

 

[The Horn]

Actually it works out quite well given to the tollerances of the situation. You should be back and ready to exit with a third of your tank. Normal fills are not exactly 3000 for a standard 80. Usually you end up with 2700 so your now coming on board with 900. Last time to 100 feet spent 8 minutes or so then back up 3 min safety stop @ 15and had 1000 left in single 80 over all dive time about 25 minutes.

I cannot believe this basic a scuba skill is being overlooked

 

[SDAnderson]

As far as I'm concerned the best thing you can do with your last 500 lbs is sit under the boat at about 15 feet and breathe it. It does no good whilst still in your tank. I have no problem with being asked to complete my stops with a 500 psi reserve, but being asked to be back on the deck ... I think that's foolish. Neptune does not own my last 500 psi, my spinal collumn does.

If conditions permit, I don't think anyone has an issue with a dive team spending some of that last third on an extended, shallow, safety stop. Play with the fish, practice some skills, learn to blow bubble rings, whatever. So long as you're still breathing when you get out of the water, you had enough air. The problem is trusting new divers to accurately judge when conditions permit cutting the safety margins - I don't want to be responsible for a new diver finding himself in heavy seas with five guys ahead of him in the line for the ladder after he and his buddy cut their gas supply so low that they're sucking the paint off their cylinders. For new divers, better "too" safe at first, until experience teaches them how to judge for themselves.

Besides, anyone who has actually done it knows just how hard it is to suck down that last 200psi. I definitely don't ever want to find myself in a situation where I need to do that, again. Inasmuch as it's unusable, Neptune really does own the last little bit of your gas.

 

[SDAnderson]

reefraff,
Isn't that thirds rule a little stiff for open water, I wouldn't want to be held to that.

What would you substitute?

 

[SDAnderson]

I think a more relevent question would be to ask how many new divers are taught that much?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Maybe this explains why their instructors skipped the LP disconnect skill - they're spending extra time on gas management!?

 

[ronbeau]

Inflator drills are required in most agencies - if you werent taught chances are the instructor broke standards.

As open water level is meant to be a very basic introduction all id like to see added to the padi syllabus at least is basic buddy rescue (in other words, controlled buoyant lift).

Better idea of gas planning would be nice too. "back with 50 bar" doesnt cut it.

I agree this could easily be added to the PADI OW course.
It was a required portion of my NAUI OW training and we were required to successfully demonstrate the skill during checkout dives.

Also, the minimum passing grade for the written OW exam in my NAUI OW class was 90%.

 

[ronbeau]

1. The last 500psi of air in your tank is a gift to Neptune and doesn't belong to you. Get out of the water before you use his air or he will smite you.
2. Work first, play later. Swim into the current at the beginning of the dive, not on the way back.
3. Boyle's Law can be your friend. Plan the deepest segment for the beginning of the dive, not on the way back.
4. The Rule of Thirds is designed to keep you alive. After you have used one third of your air, turn and head for home. After you have used two thirds of your air, you should be at the exit point. The last third is your buddy's emergency reserve. If both you and your buddy get back to the exit point with a third of your gas left, it might be OK to toodle around for a bit (if you want) but don't forget who owns that last 500psi.

Is there more that new divers need to know?

I found your posting very informative. The rule of thirds was not covered in OW training but I am familar with it.

I just have one question.

What is your definition of "exit point"

A. Begining your ascent (base of anchor line or mooring line if dving from boat)
B. At your 15 FT saftety stop
C. On the surface waiting to get back onto the boat
D. Something else (please elaborate)

 

[Thalassamania]

If conditions permit, I don't think anyone has an issue with a dive team spending some of that last third on an extended, shallow, safety stop. Play with the fish, practice some skills, learn to blow bubble rings, whatever. So long as you're still breathing when you get out of the water, you had enough air. The problem is trusting new divers to accurately judge when conditions permit cutting the safety margins - I don't want to be responsible for a new diver finding himself in heavy seas with five guys ahead of him in the line for the ladder after he and his buddy cut their gas supply so low that they're sucking the paint off their cylinders. For new divers, better "too" safe at first, until experience teaches them how to judge for themselves.

Besides, anyone who has actually done it knows just how hard it is to suck down that last 200psi. I definitely don't ever want to find myself in a situation where I need to do that, again. Inasmuch as it's unusable, Neptune really does own the last little bit of your gas.

I understand what you're saying, but I don't pull my punches for the incompetent. A good way to learn about reserves is with an upset tummy in a heavy sea whilst hanging on to a tag line awaiting your turn to exit. You only do that once.<G>

 

[Mike Newman]

I was reading a thread about a guys whose buddy’s bc inflator hose free flowed and sent her to the surface. I would like to think that I might be sharp enough to pull a dump and hold it open, but I don’t think it would have occurred to me until sometime later that the correct way to deal with this is to unhook the hose from the bc.

In and emergency, you will likely have to respond so fast that you won’t have time to figure out all the options and select the best one. Your best hope is to fall back on good training.

Well this thread that I mentioned above got me to thinking. I wonder what else is routinely left out of basic open water certification that really should be or used to be included?

My list so far:
Dealing with stuck inflator
Carrying cutting devices and freeing oneself from an underwater entanglement (I tied myself up on accident after OW and shared it on a thread here.

So what else would the seasoned salts among us add to the list??
Leah

Leah - not to be picky - but PADI (and I suspect the other WRSTC Agencies) already teach response to runaway inflators (remove LPI hose) and that divers should carry a cutting tool.

 

[Mike Newman]

What sort of class time/pool time/dive time are we talking about??

I had about 6, 4 hour class sessions? Lots of pool time, tread water for 5 minutes, swim lengths under water, above water, with fins without etc and then the OW dives.

Instruction should include basic familiarity with different gear configurations, drysuits, wetsuits, BCD's BP/W's etc etc

Basic decompression theroy covering effects on the body, air embolisms etc symtom recognition etc basic self help if you exceed tables

Hypothermia, Altitude issues, deep diving issues (see above). Basic boat diving, shore diving and drift diving, night diving techniques.

Proper use of dive flags, markers, safety systems such as Coast Guard, EMS etc

Hyperbaric chamber use and local #'s

skills: snorkle techniques, mask clearing, donning-doffing gear, assembling gear
finning techniques, bouyancy, adjusting, maintaining and setting up proper weighting.

gear maintenance, use of proper lubricants, nitrox considerations, storage, regulator construction and operation. Tanks and tank valves, vis tecniques and hydro testing, eddy current testing Why when how etc

Wreck diving considerations, heritage preservation, responsible diving, laws regarding diving, salvage etc

Self rescue, calming and breathing techniques, doubles, pony bottle considerations, diving with a buddy, buddy breathing, gas managment

Gas laws and how they affect diving, discussions on saturation and decompression diving, Nitrox cert, triox use

and it goes on......Probably forgot alot but its a start

Wrap OW, AOW and Rescue into one course as it was. For those who wish to dive at a vacation spot teach the basic OW course and dive when your at the place under instructor supervision.

Have a course that is all inclusive for those that wish to take it. Would also like to see some log book credit???

use of tables, computers, log books
history of diving and dive medicine

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Without being too critical - it seems that most of your comments above should have been covered in any WRSTC affiliated agency course. If they were not, you should query the source of the training..