SM Bladder vs BM Bladder

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Remy B.

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If I see the sidemount bladders compared with the backmount bladders it seems that the backmount's hold more volume.

My instructor who makes his own version of sidemount gear, say that you really don't need that much volume.

I have one of the sidemount systems he designed and I'm happy with it to be honest, but by the other hand I haven't yet put 6 bottles on me, and dive without a drysuit ( which give you a lot of lift volume ), I have done doubles AL-80 with my swiming trunks in Curacao and I berly had to inflate the bladder.

If everything go as planned I will be back in tropical waters in two days to do my first tropical waters tec dive, where I will put on again double AL-80 plus one 40 plus one 20, I know my sidemount bladder will handle it without a problem, but as I hopefully advance in my tec dives with time, will the bladder of a sidemount allow me to put on six AL-80's without a Drysuit ? or will I need to go for a big wing or put a drysuit on ?

It got me thinking when I see those enormus wings in pictures where I see tec divers with 6 bottles on.
 
If you are diving a balanced rig, then the wing needs to accommodate the weight of the gas that you are carrying. At around 5-6 lbs for each 80 cuft you are carrying, the rough maths would say that for 6 tanks you would need 30-40 lbs of lift. Thats for air/nitrox/O2. Trimix tanks would be lighter by some amount.

Of course that assumes that you are perfectly weighted for the end of the dive and that the wing does not need to compensate for overweighting or a very compressed wetsuit.
 
I have a hollis HD-200 with 45lb lift that I used before changing to sidemount, I guess my sidemount bladder is around 30lb, I will need to ask my instructor how much his gear bladders lift, he told me once but can't remember it.

I will need to try 6 empty bottles and see what the weight will be as for the end of the dive worse case almost deplited bottles and see if I can keep 6m stop.
 
You shouldn't have a problem at the end of the dive, if you are using rock bottom etc then its unlikely you will have completely empty tanks. Are you diving with a wetsuit more than 5mm? Aluminium tanks?

The big issue with bladder lift capacity is that at the start of the dive you will be overweighted by the amount of gas you are carrying as well as the compression factor of your exposure suit. The wing will need to be able to support that negative buoyancy. As the dive progresses and you reduce the gas weight, the wing will be less and less inflated until eventually at the 6m stop it should be fairly close to empty if you are correctly weighted.
 
Tropical waters, swim trunks and a 2mm hoody without sleeves, if I dive in EU or other cold waters that is with drysuit.

What I'm afraid is dropping like death weight with all the tanks full, that is why I ask the question, how much bladder volume is enough ?

So far the water is not bellow 20C, I don't see need of thermal protection, with my hoody I'm ok, cold doesn't bother me from 20 and above
 
I have a 2l wing (yes, 2 litre /~2kg) that does me fine for 2xAL80 and 1x AL40.

I also have a 10l wing (~10kg) that's fine for 4x AL80.

I'm probably getting a 25kg wing for the more extreme dives.... although I've always said that dives requiring that much gas are probably best undertaken with CCR.

Sidemount... if configured and dove intelligently.... doesn't require much lift.
 
Keep in mind, all these tiny bladders get super bulky when they#re filled up.
I would not buy a rig with less than 16-18 liters actual capacity... you don't really need that much under water but if you have to wait for a boat or have to do some surface swimming in cold water, small bladders really suck.
The bladder needs to be bigger than what you actually need in order to stay streamlined. That's one of the things the razor did write and the copy cats didn't understand when they 'designed' their rigs.
... say that you really don't need that much volume.
Makes no sense to me.
 
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here is my bladder, don't know how much that will be but it seems between 25 to 30lb
Sidemount fpto.jpg
 
so the answer to your original question is "it depends". For AL80 doubles, you need very little lift because the gas volume is very small. In comparison, sidemounting say steel 19's *LP121's* in the US, needs 2x as much lift. One thing to note that is a pet peeve of mine, and hopefully this is a translation error, but you shouldn't be using your drysuit for lifting volume. It is not a buoyancy compensation device, it is exposure protection. Some people choose to use it as a buoyancy compensation device and in that case, yes it does have a lot of potential lift volume, but there are risks of doing that, especially when diving with multiple tanks and I urge you to read the pros and cons of using your drysuit for buoyancy compensation.

Doubles wings are actually very difficult to make in under 40lb lift versions because you have to make the wing wide enough to accommodate 8" doubles, and then give it enough room to wrap a little bit around the tank so you have room for canister lights, drysuit inflation bottles etc. To make the wing long enough to put the lift where you need it and wide enough, nominal 40lb is almost a minimum that the can be made.

In sidemount, we are trying to keep it as flat as possible and largely within the confines of a normal sized persons back. This dimensional constraint makes it extraordinarily difficult to make effective wings that are larger than 25-30lbs of lift. The current Razor 2.0 BAT wing claims 45lbs of lift, but it is horrible when inflated and turns into a beach ball on your back. The original Razor wing was basically an MSR bag and looked good but was very small. To get around this issue, as well as to be able to practice stupid things like switching bottles, many instructors are limiting sidemount use to al80's instead of steel bottles. Pros and cons.

Depending on how you decide to dive, you may or may not need to allocate much of any wing lift for stage al80's. If you are diving a balanced rig, which unfortunately where I dive, is completely impossible, and don't have large backgas tanks with large planned reserves *cave diving*, then you will have to add lead for every AL80 that you are diving with, and add about 1kg of lead for every stage you are planning to carry if you want to avoid having to jettison any al80 either in an emergency or if you are already planning on breathing your tanks down pretty low. In Florida where I do the vast majority of my cave diving, we are coming out with planned gas reserves of at least 8lbs worth of gas. That is enough to offset up to about 4 al80's when they start floating and if we breathe the stages to empty, and come out with our backgas right at 1/3 of their original pressure, then we are finally diving a balanced rig because of the positive buoyancy of the al80's.

We don't have the luxury of diving balanced rigs because the water is relatively warm compared to the waters of Europe *around 70F or 21C vs 75F/24C*, which is cold enough to require drysuits, but not cold enough to require them with lots of undergarments. Unlike Mexico, our caves are also comparably deep with many averaging around 100ft/30m depth *vs 50ft/15m* which further negates the ability to use wetsuits on the "big" cave dives do to buoyancy and insulation losses, but also means we are going through gas quite a bit faster than they do which requires the use of large steel tanks if we are going to do any meaningful penetration.

I'm currently diving a Hollis Katana and have been abusing it quite a bit for the last 6 months. It is perfectly fine with 2x Faber LP121's/19's, and 3x al80's in a trilam drysuit with only a Pinnacle Inferno for undergarments. It will also do the Fabers with a pair of AL80's in a 5mm wetsuit so long as the depth doesn't exceed about 30ft. At 100ft, the OPV was popping with just the Faber 121's and I was not able to achieve neutral buoyancy until the tanks had reached thirds *2400psi down from 3600psi*. For me, that means that 40lbs is about the minimum that I need for my style of diving, and would prefer to have 50lbs. My Dive Rite Nomad XT will come out if I need more lift, however it is a compromise due to having a higher profile due to the wing shape
 
Drysuit vs BCD / Wing as Your Buoyancy Control

Do you mean that one?

We dive drysuit all year long in Nederland ( our dive club ) we just change the thermal undersuit, but we do a lot of lake diving and they stay cold all year round at depth, and we are taking in the 6 to 10C in summer @30M +, we can get 4 in winter it doesn't change that much in the depth here in the lakes.

I can't disagree with anybody that the BCD is easier to control specially if you are begining in the drysuit.

Drysuit is another beast in its self, it really takes a lot of dives to get the mind set to think ahead of each movement you do.

We were teached to use the drysuit for bouyancy, and at surface the BCD, you can compensate with BCD as you like but now you are entering one more thing you have to control and not only one.

It is a question of diving and diving and diving your drysuit.

You get complesant with the BCD, lets say you are doing a deep dive and your BCD go south on you, now you will use a much more complicated way of bouyancy that you have not mastered yet, you most likely will end up in to a very fast ascent.

I believe it is a question of perspective.

But I tell you we don't look like ballons under the water.

What I have notice is that the drysuit is easier and more responsive, when using a light thermal undersuit, and it has to do with how easy the air trapped in the suit flows with less restrictions as the light thermal suit is less bulky dus less restriction.
 
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