Should SCUBA divers / the Diving industry be answerable for their actions legally?

[do it easy]

I think that people should be responsible for their own actions. I don't want the government or the "scuba industry" telling me how I should dive or what the minimum safe standards are. I tend to think of myself as a compassionate person, but it would be a huge expenditure of energy if we went around protecting people from themselves.

Sometimes I wonder if the "scuba industry" would be better off if diving were perceived as more dangerous to deter people of "uncommon" sense from thinking they can just slap a tank on their back and dive like they see on TV.

 

[do it easy]

Agree but isn't it the driver who is held responsible (at least in part) if a person is injured as a direct result of not buckling up? Can you sue a restaurant if you get food poinsoning? Can a restaurant get shut down if found to be breaching health and safety regulations?

What I'm saying is that the 'blame' often falls on the industry at large because there are no regulations. After an incident there is often talk about what can be improved? Is the industry not doing enough? etc etc

In this specific case, I believe he should pay a fine and if the boat was not his, then the charter should also contribute if they went against recommendations and let hom dive off their boat.

Just my 0.02c worth.

DD

I see that things are socialized in NZ- in this case, I think the diver should pay all or most of it- why tax and burden society for his own preventable accident- he clearly hasn't learned his lesson from the first time. In this case, I think he is at fault and this goes beyond breaking an arm or crashing a car. The slippery slope is that you can deem a lot accidents preventable, so where do you draw the line as to what is an ordinary accident or a preventable one.

 

[BKP]

Having a letter on file is a really good idea although unecessary over here because of ACC (New Zealand’s accident compensation scheme which provides 24-hour no-fault personal accident insurance cover) which everybody pays. This means that in the case of an accident, no party (except in an instance of gross negligence) can be held responsible and ACC subsidise the cost of any medical treatment, time off work etc. It is a really good system.

I really do feel divers like the Kapiti one should be made to take responsibilty somehow...obviously being alive isn't enough!

Nice to see a system like that working...

Here, community service is sometimes levied in lieu of jail/fines/bracelet. Seems if he were to do a day or two of service in the company of those that rescued him, he'd better understand the effort expended, without it digging into his wallet, and the state/county/province? is repaid (to a degree)...

But, I'm with Andy... I'd hate to see it legislated anywhere... opens up the possibility of abuse.

 

[zen_man]

I agree with H2Andy and Dennis. I like the idea of being given the opportunity to do something stupid as we are all human. However, being that the guy has already been rescued in less than a month once and now does the exact same thing without rectifying the issue, he should pay this second round.

He says he feels like an idiot, but I think he's a bigger idiot for not learning from his mistakes. That's why it should be on him to pay the cost! So, I guess I'm saying you should be allowed to be human, but learn from your mistakes.

On a lighter note. I think this would fit perfect in the other thread, "You know your ADDICTED to diving when...."

:zen:

 

[Whatgoesdown]

When I worked at a big event venue in London our fire alarm had a two minute warning before going to full alarm and alerting the fire station. The first call out was free and anything that proved to be a serious fire. After a couple of false alarms in the space of a month they would charge something like 1000 pounds for every truck that turned up at the building. One night some idiot set light to a pack of matches underneath one of our detectors. The fire department was having a quiet night and sent three trucks. As well as sitting under a smoke detector he was also in front of one of our CCTV cameras and was landed with a 3000 pound bill! Rescued once, shouldn't have to pay. Rescued twice, hit him with the costs - it shouldn't happen a third time!

 

[Teamcasa]

Should SCUBA divers / the Diving industry be answerable for their actions legally?

i think legal action should be taken out of the equation if at all possible…

i'd rather have the system available to help on a "no-fault" basis…

The only exception would be in the event of gross negligence…

It's not fair on all those divers who make that extra effort (including their time and money) to be safe…

Corporations and individuals are and should be responsible for their actions. The difference is if a corporations or an individual causes and death, injury or in this case the expense of public funds by his own actions, he should pay.
It is a lawyer’s job to find gross negligence when there is none. Many people and/or their survivors often times are compelled to find fault in others to assuage their own conscience.

I think the rescues should be fault free unless it is determined that the accident could have easily prevented. Stupidity should have a cost, and they should have to wear a sign stating “I’m Stupid!”

 

[leapfrog]

When I worked at a big event venue in London our fire alarm had a two minute warning before going to full alarm and alerting the fire station. The first call out was free and anything that proved to be a serious fire. After a couple of false alarms in the space of a month they would charge something like 1000 pounds for every truck that turned up at the building. One night some idiot set light to a pack of matches underneath one of our detectors. The fire department was having a quiet night and sent three trucks. As well as sitting under a smoke detector he was also in front of one of our CCTV cameras and was landed with a 3000 pound bill! Rescued once, shouldn't have to pay. Rescued twice, hit him with the costs - it shouldn't happen a third time!

Interesting post. I have a friend (Ex Royal Marines) who is now in a firearms instructor position with the police in the UK. He tells me that generally speaking the UK cops do actually slam people with a check for "wasting police time". He particularly mentioned a family feud where members of a family were "informing" the cops of wrong doing by other members of the family, over and over again. Apparently the "County Constable" (some kind of Sheriff, I guess) socked 'em all with a huge check and that was the end of it! Could someone from the UK comment on that, please?

 

[don Francisco]

While it might be nice if idiots and the truely reckless could be made to pay for the costs they impose on others, the problem with regulation is that it creates too much colateral damage.

In actual practice safety legislation usually ends up penalizing the reasonably safe folks for minor infractions, while doing little to curb the most outrageous abuses that led to the legislation in the first place.

Unless you want to live in a world where you'll face fines for such infractions as, no whistle, no safety sausage, failure to maintain equipment, etc., it would be best to avoid this hornets nest altogether.

If "unnecessary" emergency calls become a burden, a reasonable measure might be to transfer some of the cost directly to the rescuee, by billing him for services rendered. Possibly the first may be a free pass, but the next calls become billable.

I firmly believe that dive safety cannot and should not be legislated. It depends on the attitude of the divers themselves, which can and should be modified only through education. Those folks with the most outrageous habits may be an annoyance but they will eventually be culled out by attrition.

 

[Rileybri]

This is an interesting question you raise hear. Although I am new to scuba diving, I am not new to environment and situations that may result (in a worst case situation) in emergency response. I have been a white water rafting guide on class V white water for over 10 years, I am an avid back country skier and regularly head out into the wilderness for extended skiing hut trips and I have in the past three or four years rekindled my love of sailing bigger boats in bigger bodies of water. In addition I have worked on more than a few SAR teams from the FEMA DMAT level down to the local volunteer SAR team. Although all of the outdoor activities I partake in a vastly different in how they are actually enjoyed there are some comon threads that relate this the OP's question.

Even with the proper training for skills and safety, the fecal matter can and still does hot the air agitation device. I guess we can thank good old Murphy's and his laws for that. Any time you enter the natural environment you must understand that a cretin portion of the decision making is made by elements out of your control. When I put on my PFD, my wet suit or ski pack I understand fully what I am getting into, and what the possible consequences are of my actions. This outlook and level of preparedness is not however the norm; for individuals or outfitters.

We (our greater community of outdoor enthusiasts and operators) have on whole become complacent and lazy "partisipants" in the world around us. We have become to dependent on technology and "safety nets" to get us out of trouble. How many people could navigate with the use of a GPS (scuba divers excluded) using just a basic map and compass ? How many people could effect a self rescue of themselves or a partner if an emergency happed in the back country? How many could survive out in the elements for an extended period of time? The unfortunate answer is very very few. Why learn how to be self sufficient when we know all it takes is a cell phone (with reception) and 911 to come to the rescue, at least hear in the US.

In many cases hear in the US the party activating the emergency response process is responsible for covering the costs of there rescue. There are exceptions to this as many military SAR ops are covered under the premise that it is a training exercise and most SAR operations aver volunteer and operate on a shoe string budget. With that said, The person or party being rescued are usually hit with a hefty bill for services! choppers are not cheep to operate!!!

In my opinion that is where it should end as well. Unless there is a case of gross negligence on the part of the operator, or individual group no other legal implications should apply. Get rescue/evac insurance if you think you may be in a position to use it, but the only real insurance is to be prepared. With that said, **** happens and it is not a matter of if but when it does. It then becomes a matter of how prepared you or your group is to handle the situation.

end rant, someone please take my soap box away now. Thanks......


Brian D.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

It would be very difficult if not impossible to calculate how much one should pay. For example, if it costs 10 Million per year to operate an ocean rescue group, how much of that cost should be passed on to each person involved in an incident? All of it, right!

Just for conversation... Say there's a million incidents per year, then each person would pay one dollar. However, suppose it's a good year and you are the only person that calls for help that year, are you going to pay the full $10 Million all by yourself? How fair is that?

The end result is usually some poor sole gets a bill for $100,000 for one call-out that didn't really cost anything because the people and equipment are already paid for.

Considering that, except for fuel, most of the costs are for personnel and equipment and you have to pay for those whether they sit idle or not. It's a resource that's available to everyone, and costs they same whether used or not, then everyone should split the cost.