Should I get PADI Dive Master?

[Zef]

That (death) has already happened, and the result has been the various agencies doubling down on reducing their liability by restricting what instructors can teach.

Other than that, I agree the PADI MSD is BS, as are most specialty courses under most of the agencies.

I think there is too much emphasis on "instructor based training" and there is too high a regard that a certification card has any real meaning. But as long as there are people who believe that everyone around them shares in the accountability and liability for their choices and the results of those choices, then there must be a way for organizations and individuals to protect themselves...the impact of this is what we see in the industry today.

-Z

After reading and reflecting on what I wrote about specialty courses being BS, and what I know of training agencies I want to state the following:

Training agencies make their money by publishing and selling training materials along with charging administrative fees for the certification cards. Once a diver is done with a particular course, if they do not ever need a replacement card there is no flow of cash from the diver to the agency. The continual flow of funds is in annual fees paid by dive professionals (Instructors, Assistant instructors, Divemasters) who pay professional dues to be/remain affiliated with the agency. The cost of a training course, be it openwater certification or a specialty is not fully governed by the training agency. The instructor or organization providing the actual training (shop, club, etc.) is typically at liberty to set their own pricing to cover their costs for the training materials, admin fees with the agency, time, other resources, etc.

I can understand why a training agency would develop a robust menu of courses offered to divers. I also understand that some divers use these courses as additional time under the watchful eye of an instructor. I also know that just because the menu is robust does not mean the training courses themselves will be. The agencies are just looking to ensure they have a revenue stream that flows as much as possible.

My sentiment is that taking specialty courses does not necessarily make one a better, more competent, confident, and/or capable diver. It could but not always. I know plenty of divers with lots of cert cards and I question how they have not yet hurt themselves in the water....some of these folk even hold professional level certifications.

If taking courses is your bag, go for it. If collecting cards is your bag, go for it. If you believe there is some status or benefit to be gained by becoming DM certified, then go for it. If you want more time with an instructor, then go for it. If you want to hire a DM to guide you, then go for it. There are far worse ways on can spend their time and money.

-Z

 

[Addicted2H2O]

I agree the PADI MSD is BS, as are most specialty courses under most of the agencies.

I think there is too much emphasis on "instructor based training" and there is too high a regard that a certification card has any real meaning. But as long as there are people who believe that everyone around them shares in the accountability and liability for their choices and the results of those choices, then there must be a way for organizations and individuals to protect themselves...the impact of this is what we see in the industry today.

-Z

I couldn't agree more. Specialty courses seem to only familiarize you with the material. There isn't enough practical training to really hone in a specialty skill. Take XYC Agency Full Face Mask Diver course for example. I audited said course here a month or so back and most of the actual training seems to be a waste of time. Okay so you can breathe out of the ffm laying on either side, on your face, or on your back....yippy. That's not training. Go inverted (head down) and adjust the flow rate down until the freeflow stops....okay, that's a halfway useful skill. Then of course there's the doff and don skill.....definitely useful. Does getting a certification course in ffm diving make me a better ffm diver? To my knowledge, I've got more ffm experience than just about any other dive in my shop, save some of the instructors. And I didn't take a cert class to learn it. I bought it, did some reading, hooked it up and jumped in the pool. I spent about an hour and a half sitting on the bottom (yes I know....kneeling bad) practicing doffing and donning and switching between ffm and traditional mask & reg. I'm about as proficient as one can get in ffm diving, to the extent that when it came time to doff and switch to a conventional setup during an actual incident (omni-swivel o-ring failure) I performed well and continued my dive for another 15-20 minutes. Funny though....now I sort of want the c-card just to say I have it.

I think the emphasis isn't so much on instructor-based training as it is on "pay for this certification." Gotta keep the business afloat somehow.

 

[Subcooled]

I would like to learn more skills

NAUI master scuba diver or CMAS three star diver. Then join a non-commercial diving club.

Have you considered taking a technical diving classes? Doubles? Decompression procedures? Team awareness and communication?

Becoming an OWSI does not make you a great diver. Unfortunately.

 

[Rickk]

I am currently considering going Dive Master. I am not interested in working as a dive pro but want to improve my skills. I am happy with my skil levels, just want to nail it.

I have been asking at the local shops what I would get out of a DM course that I would not get out of just diving and paying attention and asking questions.

The best answer I got was from the operator of one dive shop, he said that you can make a lot of dives on a DM course and it can work out to some pretty cheap diving overall.

Current costs to dive here are around 1500 p a dive more or less, that is $US 30 per dive. A DM course runs about 60k p or $US1500.

I talked to some students taking the DM course, and they said that they were just extending out the time, taking a long time to map their dive site, practicing the skills for 10 minutes then having a 40 minute fun dive. The dive shop had no problem with that. They basically just dove alone (It was a husband wife buddy pair), two dive sites to map, lots of dives.

They anticipated doing around 80 to 100 dives or in other words were getting a lot of diving at about half the cost. This works better if you can go to a place where you can dive daily and not spread out the DM course over many months.

If I found a shop in an area that I wanted to dive that often, that was OK with me doing that much diving, then I would consider it. As has been mentioned in other posts you learn something a lot better when you have to teach it so the skills improvement would be helpful in the teaching part.

I just wish that there was a PADI Master Scuba Diver course, not just a collection of cards, that was essentially a DM course focusing on skills and techniques and knowledge for diving and not the professional/teaching aspect of a DM course.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

@Rickk

Have you thought about the NAUI master diver course? It may be more of what you are looking for?

 

[TMHeimer]

Th

I am currently considering going Dive Master. I am not interested in working as a dive pro but want to improve my skills. I am happy with my skil levels, just want to nail it.

I have been asking at the local shops what I would get out of a DM course that I would not get out of just diving and paying attention and asking questions.

The best answer I got was from the operator of one dive shop, he said that you can make a lot of dives on a DM course and it can work out to some pretty cheap diving overall.

Current costs to dive here are around 1500 p a dive more or less, that is $US 30 per dive. A DM course runs about 60k p or $US1500.

I talked to some students taking the DM course, and they said that they were just extending out the time, taking a long time to map their dive site, practicing the skills for 10 minutes then having a 40 minute fun dive. The dive shop had no problem with that. They basically just dove alone (It was a husband wife buddy pair), two dive sites to map, lots of dives.

They anticipated doing around 80 to 100 dives or in other words were getting a lot of diving at about half the cost. This works better if you can go to a place where you can dive daily and not spread out the DM course over many months.

If I found a shop in an area that I wanted to dive that often, that was OK with me doing that much diving, then I would consider it. As has been mentioned in other posts you learn something a lot better when you have to teach it so the skills improvement would be helpful in the teaching part.

I just wish that there was a PADI Master Scuba Diver course, not just a collection of cards, that was essentially a DM course focusing on skills and techniques and knowledge for diving and not the professional/teaching aspect of a DM course.

That's an interesting take on doing DM. If one can do 80-100 dives at about half the cost as you say, one will certainly improve on diving skills. Such as diving in general, buoyancy, finning, etc.
I imagine this is possible in tropical locations with courses several months long with diving or course work every/every other day. Our courses here can take that long, but with meeting/pool/diving once weekly. The "intern" type course is not a norm in Canada or U.S.
The DM course itself (pool work) will improve the 24 or so skills you must be able to demonstrate to a class (mask clearing, etc. you know them). You will REALLY do those well, so it could be said even a course with way less than 80-100 dives will improve those specific skills. But, if your aim is to become a better diver and no interest in teaching, it's far less costly to just do a lot of diving. You can get your "24" skills down as good as anyone, without having to slow them down and point out each little step to a class.
I may agree with wetb4 about the NAUI MSD course. I've read that it's akin to the PADI DM course minus the teaching aspect. I believe there are 8 or so required dives. If the theory is similar to the PADI DM course prior to 2010, there will be a ton of theory. All of which is quite interesting and good to know, but much of which you may never really use (like my 2 Music degrees).

 

[Skulmoski]

I would like to learn more skills for when my daughter is old enough to SCUBA (in 2 years). I also have Dive Instructor as a possible future early retirement job for myself. Certainly it sounds like I'd learn quite a bit.

I took the DM path to mostly to become a more competent diver and to better be able to look after my daughter and myself when we dived. I discussed my learning outcomes with my instructor, and my trim and buoyancy improved as a result. Training and diving experience makes most people more competent divers. I support your proposal to take DM and get more training; but I also recommend you, increase the amount and perhaps diversity of diving. All the best in 2020 and beyond!

p.s. Diving with my daughter has been hazardous to my wallet! LOL!

 

[oly5050user]

I would like to learn more skills for when my daughter is old enough to SCUBA (in 2 years). I also have Dive Instructor as a possible future early retirement job for myself. Certainly it sounds like I'd learn quite a bit.

I have heard about liability insurance requirements for Dive Masters. What if I get the Dive Master rating but don't use it professionally for 5 or even 10 years? Do I need to pay insurance or do other items to keep it current? Can I let it go dormant and resume down the Dive Instructor path in the future when I'm ready?

Only need to carry insurance when working as a divemaster. Do need to maintain PADI dues every year . Do not lapse for too long as then you may need a update or complete dm course . All depends on how many years in lapsed status. Reason is standards change, some skills are eliminated or added.

 

[MichaelMc]

@Rickk, I began DM training (NAUI) as something to do next as part of my university scientific dive program. While doing that I've been assisting with our training, as have other graduates of our program who are not working toward DM. But I'll likely never work as a pro, as I've a technology career already, so will likely not complete DM in the foreseeable future.

I think a DM program will work at teaching you how to teach others what you know. About masks, fins, wetsuits, weighting, buoyancy, trim, propulsion, BCs, regs, tanks, mask clearing, reg swap/recovery, air share, rescue, physics, physiology, NDL, assent rate, compass, etc. You'll likely dive a bunch while watching over and coaching OW students. You'll learn to give a dive briefing and teach one of the above subjects. I think that will be much of your focus. You'll think about how to get the good things you know across to others. As well as help with any logistics for the whole effort. Through it, you'll need to get your core skills and demos of them up to the needed levels for testing and use with students (the part you seem to care about).

If you don't plan on teaching, I think to advance your skills you would be better served by finding good instructors who will critique and help you hone your skills. And dive with good divers focused on those skills. If it is possible, pool practice time may be cheaper and more efficient than the bit of practice you get in while helping with students.

NAUI Master scuba diver is good. We issue that to many of our students, as our program covers more than it. So I've helped teach it a few times now. I'd recommend it highly for the academics, NAUI DM (and AI and instructor) just do teaching, demo, and leadership stuff as all the dive theory is covered in Master Scuba Diver. It is a good class. But on dives, it is still just 8 dives. Awesome on theory, but just a start on more dive training.

Our program benefits greatly from the former students that come back to help. Few of them are DMs or even DM candidates, they are just good divers who make good assistants for training post-OW students. Most places (and NAUI) that means they count against instructor student ratios, instead of helping. But they really serve a similar role you would serve in a DM program. If you want that experience, I imagine one or more of your instructors, who you take from to further your skills, might be open to having you assist in their classes. If you are someone they think will be of help. I do not know the insurance rules shops and instructors work under. But if you look at the agency rules for some of the more advanced classes many have language like 'an experienced diver already qualified at X can be beneficial for safety and is encouraged'. If you've got NAUI instructors in the area, NAUI has a non-pro Training Assistant cert which is fairly simple and gives you some formal standing of being able to assist at particular tasks in classes, like watching divers, guiding tours. It does require rescue CPR and first aid.

I'd take NAUI Master scuba diver or AN/DP for the academics, cavern from a cave instructor (for the skills), Fundies/intro tech from a cave instructor (for the skills), solo (for the self sufficiency), Rescue (for the watchful eye on others and the situation) DAN First Aid for Professional Divers, and practice in pool and ocean before taking DM if what you want is skills and not to teach. And if you want to teach, all of that, and practice, would make you a decent diver to start a DM program.

There is a reason pros carry insurance. They might be sued. Well, anyone might, but pros are on the short list of people to sue. Whether they were active, working, responsible, or not. If you just want to get better skills I would focus on that, not becoming a pro as a way to get better skills.

I've learned a lot as DM candidate and from assisting, but I've also learned from being the lead/senior diver of a group of friends going diving, workshops I've taken, and parts of diving I've explored.

Good luck.

 

[ontdiver]

I took the DM path to mostly to become a more competent diver

Although I had visions of becoming a working DM, this did not materialize. I do, however, credit the course for enhancing my overall skill set. Ultimately, among all the other other things that are important - including, IMHO, a rescue course - you need to get in the water regularly, get some exposure to different dive different conditions, and be reliable and attentive DB.