Shell Collecting/Live Collection/Endangered Species

[TMHeimer]

My exact words to a dive op are "Is it OK to collect shells for my somewhat scientific collection?"
Could that be called a lie? I suppose so, unless you figure it's scientific because they are labelled by location with books available by the collection to look them up. It's a stretch for sure. I doubt that approach works very well anyway, as I can probably count on one hand the dive ops that agreed to it. Saying it's somewhat scientific probably makes little or more likely no difference in how they respond.

 

[g1138]

I think the main reason why most dive ops disagree with it is because there are actual agencies comprised of scientific divers who dive for the advancement of science. We're talking bio majors, environmental, geology, archeology majors who perform science in the field on SCUBA.
The end result of field work being to publish their findings in a scientific journal or data base.

Currently the bar is set there for the term scientific.
That's my opinion at least. You can say I'm sorta bias towards the term. =\

 

[laguna230diver]

having participated in scientific dives/research/journal articles I can say that what you are doing is not science. You are furthering only your appreciation for a particular shell that you are interested in. You are not furthering the knowledge of all, and definately not setting out to answer a question.

 

[laguna230diver]

you are about as scientific as the japanese killing whales to count the rings

 

[ScubaVideo]

How about a new approach, one that may be difficult to understand: Honesty! Tell them you have been collecting since you were a kid and this is the shell of your dreams to make your collection. It it is already legal, than you should be fine. If not, find a smaller op who will take just you out to a spot they think they are - your own personal hunt so to speak.

And just to chime in on the science issue, science has very specific procedures to follow. At 10 when you started, you could call it science because you would not know the difference and this is the level of science at that age - but not at 51. It's a hobby and that does not make it some kind of evil thing in itself.

I still don't agree with it, but being honest about it will take you a lot further.

 

[Hank49]

I'm not even sure Tritons are IN the Caribbean, but Crown of Thorns are not. So if you take one Triton, I don't think you're going to have any affect on the COT populations.

Regarding taking of any shells, most countries will have laws regarding season, size etc. In Belize there is a season on conch. It's open from late Oct thru June 28 or so. Follow the local laws. It's a bit arrogant to try and get permission to collect illegally for your personal pleasure.

 

[TMHeimer]

How about a new approach, one that may be difficult to understand: Honesty! Tell them you have been collecting since you were a kid and this is the shell of your dreams to make your collection. It it is already legal, than you should be fine. If not, find a smaller op who will take just you out to a spot they think they are - your own personal hunt so to speak.

And just to chime in on the science issue, science has very specific procedures to follow. At 10 when you started, you could call it science because you would not know the difference and this is the level of science at that age - but not at 51. It's a hobby and that does not make it some kind of evil thing in itself.

I still don't agree with it, but being honest about it will take you a lot further.

Well, maybe that type of approach would help--couldn't hurt. When I first started contacting ops years ago I didn't say "somewhat scientific". But I didn't say "shell of my dreams" either. The previous two posters may have a point that "scientific" denotes something much more specific--like procedures, reasons for mankind's betterment, equipment, measurements, etc. I think that probably doesn't count very much though, and if I were involved in that line of work, I wouldn't be having problems finding dive ops because I would either be on a scientific vessel or on a private op that has been contracted. I may be completely wrong in my assesments of why so few permit collecting but these are the reasons that I THINK they have:

1. A genuine concern that taking anything living is environmentally bad
2. Taking anything at all from a reef/site where they take paying customers makes that spot less appealing and hurts business
3. 1 & 2 combined

I understand both of these things. I figured saying it was somewhat scientific might put me in a little better light when contacting them. I guess I could also say I built a picket fence by following steps 1-4 and repeating as necessary so as not to have a random-built messy fence, so my method was pretty scientific. I underestand the criticisms by folks calling this dishonest. But I had no thoughts of going on a boat and telling them anything other than exactly what I do, how I label the shells, etc. I had no plans to say, hey, I'm a scientist with a good cause! Just out of curiosity, if I also labelled my shells by either common or scientific name would this make my collection "more" scientific? Cannot an individual do things "somewhat" scientifically without a degree? Semantics, I guess. Rogers Clemmens is accused of out and out lying to Congress and will be in much more hot water for that than if they prove he took illegal steroids. I honestly think my actions are nowhere near like that.

 

[g1138]

It really comes down to the whole purpose of collecting shells that determines if it is primarily scientific or primarily for recreation.

If you're main purpose is to collect them and label them, well that's already been done. You can be a scientific diver and perform this but it's excessive because it's already been done. Collecting it and labeling it serves no purpose, unless you need one for a museum exhibit. And if it's endangered and protected then you better have a really good reason for collecting a live specimen, or else you get no permit or grant to do so.

Making a private collection by means of taking live animals is not a good scientific purpose.
There has to be a reason and purpose for why you choose to take a live animal just for it's shell. What will doing that accomplish for the advancement of science? The scientific name, common name, and shell description, plus the description of the animal has already been documented.

AAUS (American Academy of Underwater Sciences) states that the definition of scientific diving is "diving performed soley as a necessary part of a scientific, research, or educational activity by employees whose sole purpose for diving is to perfom scientific research tasks.
I'm sure other agencies have a similar definition.

A little history about AAUS, it was created because OSHA didn't have a category for scientific diving, so they grouped it under commercial diving. That meant to perform scientific diving you had to have many things, among them a hyperbaric chamber at each research site. Do you realize how much those things cost, scientific diving would be dead if we had to abide by this. So AAUS was created, and defined it's own processes and guidelines to establish scientific diving as a recognized and unique form of diving.

You can call your collection methods a research task, you can take your shells back and label them, but your sole purpose for collection is for your personal enjoyment. You collect shells as a hobby. That is not scientific. You can make your hobby scientific, but when it comes down to it, it is a hobby. Even if you present your collection for educational purposes, it is redundant, it already has been done.

That is not a bad thing, but it is frowned upon if you deplete the population of an endangered species. It's akin to if a museum killed a panda so it could have an actual panda skeleton on display.
I ask you, why can't a fake shell work? Because it doesn't appeal to you. You choose to get the real thing. And by scientific standards that is wasteful and frowned upon by the whole scientific community. You can't study an organism if you deplete said organism wastefully.

Calling it scientific is stretching the truth a bit.
It undermines what certified scientific divers actually do, and it undermines the reasons for why they do it. And given a certain person's opinion, it can put a bad name on the term scientific if you use it.
So for the sake of actual certified scientific divers, I ask you to not use that reason for your shell collection methods.

 

[ScubaVideo]

I'm not even sure Tritons are IN the Caribbean, but Crown of Thorns are not. So if you take one Triton, I don't think you're going to have any affect on the COT populations.

Regarding taking of any shells, most countries will have laws regarding season, size etc. In Belize there is a season on conch. It's open from late Oct thru June 28 or so. Follow the local laws. It's a bit arrogant to try and get permission to collect illegally for your personal pleasure.

Charonia variegata, common name : the Atlantic triton

Not sure crown of thorns are their yet either and I hope they never are. As far as I know they are in the Indian and Pacific oceans. But then the Lion fish was also a Indian and Pacific Ocean fish too, now it is in the Atlantic and has no predators except for man and maybe grouper.

I think the term trumpet applies to the triton species because they were/are used as trumpets by native people in the Pacific. I think is a common name used for all the triton's vs a specific one.

 

[TMHeimer]

g1138, I understand all of what you are saying. And you are describing "scientific" in it's formal and true meaning. The word is probably used incorrectly all the time to describe acts that really are not scientific at all. I suppose I am one of the offenders. I do apologize to those dedicated few who do the good work of science. I guess my frustrations over years led me to using this term in the hopes of improving my chances to collect, but as stated, I doubt it has anyway. The only other thing I can comment on in your post is about depleting the population of endangered species. You'll have to trust me that I never "overcollect". Your knowledge is appreciated. One of my "rant" frustrations of course are the majority of divers critical of my collecting who know nothing about shell populations. "Overkill" you might say. But that's just the way things are.