Shell Collecting/Live Collection/Endangered Species

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ScubaVideo: So you're saying Crown of Thorns are screwed no matter what? You couldn't stop their ravaging? WHY is the Triton shell still in your collection for so long ago? Swords, Chlorox bottles--holly crap! Your shell from Okinawa is still in your collection? WOW! Throw it out. I'm not sure what you are saying. You are a former shell collector: Are you serious that my "hobby" hurts the World?
 
ScubaVideo: So basically you're saying you're somewhat illegally taken Tritons Trumpet remain in your collection. And your're saying the plight of the Crown of Thorns is in doubt. "Taking game" is a comment referring to Spearos, not shell collectors. A World of difference, though I support all those spearos on SB. "Needless how small my part was."
I WON'T take up photography. Are you a shell collector-- are you a member of Seashell-Collector.com?
 
I collected sea shells at one time, and then stopped because I didn't want to contribute to the needless destruction of our ocean - no matter how small my part was. I started collecting back in the late 70's while stationed at Kadena AB, Okinawa Japan. Many of my fellow divers were collectors - lots of them actually. I once brought up a very rare cone shell, I was offered hundreds of dollars for it by collectors - including Triton's Trumpet and "secret" locations of lots of Triton's Trumpet. I never sold it because it was not about the money, but about what I found. That shell is still in my collection reminding me of how I have helped in the destruction of those reefs in Okinawa. I will never collect again - period.

Two incidents helped me change my mind. The first was an incident involving Triton's Trumpet and Crown of Thorns. A call was given out from our dive club, the Okinawa Reef Rovers to gather at a reef that was in danger from Crown of Thorns. You see the collection of Triton's Trumpet was so popular that there were not enough natural predators of the Crown of Thorns left, and they breed and multiply fast. The reef was completely saturated with them. So the Air Force and Marine personnel gathered on a Friday afternoon and we began diving until late Sunday afternoon. Our mission was to destroy Crown of Thorns. You can just kill them and cutting them wont work - you have to remove them from the ocean. We used a small fleet of aluminum row boats that each group would drag around with them. We made special swords that had Clorox bottles cut in half to protect our hands. We skewered the Crown of Thorns for hours, from sun up to sundown. We fill those little boats and emptied them over and over, there was a huge smelly pile of dead rotting Crown of Thorns when we were done. We got a bulldozer and loaded them in a huge dump truck and gave the it all to local farmers for fertilizer.

The last I heard about that reef was that it was not doing very well from the Crown of Thorns. They multiply too fast to eradicate them after their population is out of control. Much like the grass roots campaign to eradicate the Lion Fish from the Atlantic, it's better to be proactive than reactive when it's too late.

The second incident involved 3 spear fishermen on the Vision in the Channel Is. I too was a spear fishermen, taking one or two to eat once in a while. But on this trip, that changed. There were those 3, dressed in commercial looking dry suits taking as many fish as each could shoot every dive for three days. They took at least 10 each for 4 dives each day. They were professionals, in the way one took care of the gear, one filleted and one packaged the fish. So that was at least 30 fish a dive times 4 dives for 4 days. No where near what one fishing boat does in a few hours out on Monterey Bay, but it was enough to convince me to leave my spear gun in the holder for the entire trip. Later at home I cut it up into small pieces.

I'm not saying everyone should stop taking game, but just have some sanity about it. I am certain those three went over their limits and the crew said nothing. So be it, I won't take any and others will stand by me. And others will continue to take - that's your choice as long as it is permitted and the fish remain. Abalone, salmon or trout are examples of those that are endangered from a take all you want attitude - the ocean has an endless supply doesn't it?

I hope you find hundreds of Triton's Trumpet where you go on your trip. Though I doubt it, because your not the only one in this ocean taking them.

Maybe you should take up photography and see them forever on your wall in their natural environment. I can understand where your coming from, I did collect them once. The shell I took that was very rare was the Conus aulicus - the Courtly Cone. I wish I never had taken it - though I never took a Triton's Trumpet, because even then I new that they protected our reefs from the Crown of Thorns that I and others tried to eradicate, and failed.

tritoncrown.jpg


A triton's trumpet (Charonia tritonis) attacking a crown-of-thorns starfish, and thus saving the coral reef from one of its most notorious pests. This photo was taken in Australia. (courtesy of Tellus Consultants)

ScubaVideo: So you're saying Crown of Thorns are screwed no matter what? You couldn't stop their ravaging? WHY is the Triton shell still in your collection for so long ago? Swords, Chlorox bottles--holly crap! Your shell from Okinawa is still in your collection? WOW! Throw it out. I'm not sure what you are saying. You are a former shell collector: Are you serious that my "hobby" hurts the World?

ScubaVideo: So basically you're saying you're somewhat illegally taken Tritons Trumpet remain in your collection. And your're saying the plight of the Crown of Thorns is in doubt. "Taking game" is a comment referring to Spearos, not shell collectors. A World of difference, though I support all those spearos on SB. "Needless how small my part was."
I WON'T take up photography. Are you a shell collector-- are you a member of Seashell-Collector.com?

Maybe you should try reading and contemplating before just barking out an angry answer.
The shell I took that was very rare was the Conus aulicus - the Courtly Cone. I wish I never had taken it - though I never took a Triton's Trumpet, because even then I new that they protected our reefs from the Crown of Thorns that I and others tried to eradicate, and failed.

I support spearfishing too, but would not if they were just shooting them to collect their eyeballs or have them stuffed and put on a wall. I support them because they consume them - not just making trophies of them. But that does not mean they should not pay attention to either laws or morality.

The shells I took did not prey upon a species that destroys coral reefs. They were not protected by any laws or moral conscience at that period of time. I stopped collecting them in the early 80's - not long after I started the "hobby".

Answer this: if you could not find a legal place in the world to take one of these, would you anyway?
 
For the record I'm a guy. And yes I do think you're treating them as object calling them shells when in fact there is an animal that produces that shell for a shelter and living space.

Secondly I feel like your making excuses to justify your hobby, in particular the part that requires you collecting live gastropods for the sole purpose of their shells. And purely for the sake of self enjoyment.
Not saying that self enjoyment is wrong.
But own up to it.

You're not doing this for SCIENTIFIC purposes. The shop owner was given or bought the shells, you don't know! I don't care about that specificity anymore.
The fact is: what annoys me is that you tried to give your hobby's methods of collection a false statement of purpose.
I feel that YOU think your true intentions for your methods are selfish and that's why you get so aggressive when someone states an opposing opinion. And I believe that also the reason why you can't give a base statement without twisting words.

If you want to do this then fine, but don't go making excuses or false statements just so it can feel alright.
Own up to your reasons for collections and know what it could do in a worst case scenario. If you would have told me that you collect this species' shell
one that's can help keep an ecosystem stay stabilized and one that's endangered
and that you're fine with that even if it means killing an individual for it, then I wouldn't be 5 posts into this.


All I'm getting from you is that: it's just one that doesn't matter, and everyone else does it in greater numbers, so therefore I'm exempt because I take one.

I'm not arguing to change your opinion. I can see your passionate about this.
All I'm trying to do is make you stop lying and making up excuses.
That's the only thing that really annoys me about you.
 
TMHeimer, I've seen several of your threads and it continues to baffle me. You consistently lie to dive ops and here on SB when you say it's a "scientific collection" and yet you get upset when people complain about your methods.

If you feel the need to lie about it, obviously you think there is something wrong with the practice. Sure, you're lying because you don't want to get grief from people who disagree with your position. Whatever.

If you want to take shells, take them. Don't try and justify it by lying. Be honest and have the balls to admit you will do it whether people like it or not.

If you think it doesn't matter that you take one, then take one. No one is going to be able to convince you otherwise so why even start the conversation? If you think a 40 year collection is somehow justification, nothing anyone here or anywhere else is going to convince you you're wrong.

Personally, I don't see the big issue with people being responsible and only taking one or two specimen of whatever they hunt. The issue is people who abuse that and take irresponsibly. You've already indicated which type you are and which type you'd like to be.
 
Believe it or not a hobby can be scientific for ones own studies, purposes, or enjoyment. Whether it be learning taxonomy or just organizing the collection.

The OP stated it was legal to take in specific area.

Just as it is legal to take a specific species of Abalone north of the Golden Gate during season, but many species are endangered in the south.

It is probable that in the legal (allowed) take local either it is not endangered or no controls are enforced for the shell of interest.
 
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Yes a hobby can be for scientific purposes, but the OP stated in this thread (post #17) that he just tells people that to keep them from questioning his motives.

I have no beef with the OP for collecting, and I believe he is trying to do it in a legal manner with moral and ecological responsibility. I think he is genuinely a hobbyist that just feels put upon by those that no longer believe hunting is acceptable for whatever reasons they have. I don't believe we should try to preserve every species on the planet. Species came and went long before we ever started impacting the planet. I think killing a snail is basically harmless, whether it's a snail in my garden or a sea snail like we're discussing here, but I also belief in responsible upkeep of an environment we don't fully comprehend above and below the surface. Taking one or two specimen doesn't impact the environment in a huge way and the suggestion "what if everyone took one" is specious at best since we all know that simply isn't realistic that all divers have the same interests in collecting things. For the most part species can easily survive taking "one or two" at a time. What I have beef with is his continued dishonesty with people here on SB and in the real world about his intentions of "scientific" examination when he's really just collecting and categorizing "beautiful" things and his indignant responses when people call him on it.

He admitted this thread was primarily a rant because someone upset him in another thread, so I can't really fault him. I get frustrated, I rant. I don't ever misrepresent my intentions deliberately, though, and that is exactly what he has done repeatedly. That is really my only complaint about the whole thing. I say let him collect his shells, live or not, but don't let him get away with claiming he should be allowed some special privilege to do so because it's scientific or because he's been collecting since he was a child.
 
Believe it or not a hobby can be scientific for ones own studies, purposes, or enjoyment. Whether it be learning taxonomy or just organizing the collection.

From Wikipedia - the bold part really captures the thought for me:

Scientific method refers to a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[1] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry must be based on gathering observable, empirical and measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[2] A scientific method consists of the collection of data through observation and experimentation, and the formulation and testing of hypotheses.[3]

While of course you can have a hobby that is scientific, you can't just say it is without fallowing scientific method.
 
So if you catch hell on boats, and you only take one or two, can't you just shove a couple in a BCD pocket and not say anything. Then no one knows, and you've already said you don't do it to show off to others, so if it is strictly for yourself, then just shoot, shovel and shut-up.

Granted I feel like you shouldn't have to do this, but discretion is a useful tool.
 
I collect shells from time to time. I love to come across a newly uninhabited cowrie shell...they are my personal favorite. But....I only take shells that are empty. I closely look, then shake. If a lot of sand comes out it's probably uninhabited; but several times I noticed a displeasing smell after a few days, and found out a crab was hidden inside the shell and had gone unnoticed. I always felt bad, because I was responsible for it's demise. But that's ME!

No one can be your conscience. If you don't mind taking something that is alive (which I have no problem taking lobster because I love to eat lobster, but I don't like to personally be responsible for killing something just for the "shell"). Again, that is just ME!

There are times when I come across a beautiful tulip, which I would looooovvveeee to add to my collection of shells. Unfortunately, every rare one that I've come across has had a creature in it, and my conscience tells me not to take it due to someone living in the prized shell. When and if I ever come across an empty one, you bet I'm going to take it!

You do what you want to do, and the heck with everyone else. If you need other people's "permission" to do something, you probably have some inner issues that need to be addressed. I'm not condeming nor condoning what you want to do. It's not my place nor anyone else's. If it's illegal, then yes, you're doing something wrong. If it's legal and you go to a place that allows live collecting, then go ahead and do it if that's what you want to do. No one can make your decisions for you. You're the only one that has to live with himself. No one else should matter.

Where you don't want to photograph shells, I WOULD like to see a pic of the trumpet you finally collect.....:D:D
 
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