Shark bites liveaboard guest
- Thread starter cappyjon431
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
- Status
grassyknoll
Contributor
Quote:
Originally Posted by matt215
any idea how many divers die in a given year due to diver error/stupidity that are not related to marine wildlife?
\
Ummmm, I do beleive you mean how many divers that have died in a given year die due to stupidity. Otherwise our sport having a yearly fatality rate for participants of 99.99999% is news to me
.
As for the whole controversy baited/chummed vs. natural shark experience goes, I have conflicting feelings myself. I have done two non-chum/baiting cage dives out at the Farralon Islands. After spending two days out there, not only were there no cage sightings we never saw as much as a dorsal fin breaking the surface; this was during prime elephant seal season and you know they were around. So, baiting would have given me the opportunity to see and experience sharks that weren't going to cooperate naturally. On the other hand, baiting, chumming and the like is changing their behavior. Even if the baiting is done in a manner that mirrors feedings on dead whales or other naturally occuring feedings, you are still adding in ellements that don't exist at those feedings-association to boats, divers in the water etc...I can't say what level of effect this has but isn't that the point, as little as we really know about shark behavior I doubt anyone can say that this is or isn't an issue. I have read postings from others on this board that speak of sharks becoming accustomed to spearfishers and then showing up to check out divers, even those that are not spearfishing, sometimes the divers report "harrasing" behavior. To me, this issue isn't a question of are we changing behavior, but rather is the level of change creating a hazzard? And unfortunately, I doubt anyone has the evidence to support their position on either side.
Originally Posted by matt215
any idea how many divers die in a given year due to diver error/stupidity that are not related to marine wildlife?
\
Ummmm, I do beleive you mean how many divers that have died in a given year die due to stupidity. Otherwise our sport having a yearly fatality rate for participants of 99.99999% is news to me
.As for the whole controversy baited/chummed vs. natural shark experience goes, I have conflicting feelings myself. I have done two non-chum/baiting cage dives out at the Farralon Islands. After spending two days out there, not only were there no cage sightings we never saw as much as a dorsal fin breaking the surface; this was during prime elephant seal season and you know they were around. So, baiting would have given me the opportunity to see and experience sharks that weren't going to cooperate naturally. On the other hand, baiting, chumming and the like is changing their behavior. Even if the baiting is done in a manner that mirrors feedings on dead whales or other naturally occuring feedings, you are still adding in ellements that don't exist at those feedings-association to boats, divers in the water etc...I can't say what level of effect this has but isn't that the point, as little as we really know about shark behavior I doubt anyone can say that this is or isn't an issue. I have read postings from others on this board that speak of sharks becoming accustomed to spearfishers and then showing up to check out divers, even those that are not spearfishing, sometimes the divers report "harrasing" behavior. To me, this issue isn't a question of are we changing behavior, but rather is the level of change creating a hazzard? And unfortunately, I doubt anyone has the evidence to support their position on either side.
I would think that a man who just had a great portion of his leg bit off, would be screaming with PAIN, not holding his breathe. Air Embolism is when somebody ascends while holding thier breath and the air inside the lungs expand and cause a rupture of the lung...of course, divers should know that....I think the hole "embolism" issue is just trying to point away from it being a shark attack...and put more or all of the blame on the poor guy that died. My thoughts
1) The information released stated he was brought to the surface by another quest on the boat. There was no report of a second diver with the bends or a embolism, wouldn't the rescuer suffered some symptoms if they to had made a rapid uncontrolled ascent??
2) Again the pain issue, I scream when I stup my toe, if it was me I would have been probably going "holly @!*#" on the way up.
3) I heard from a group of fisherman that were listening to the radio conversation back and forth during the actual rescue stated that the Coast Guard asked "can you control the bleeding" and the person on Shearwater replied "NO" then they stated "WE ARE TRYING TO HOLD HIM TOGETHER" I actually heard this from two sources, but I am sure the news will sooner or later get a copy of the CG tape, I think Miami records all major rescue ops.
Anyhow, I would call it diver error or panic if a diver SAW a shark and bolted to the surface. A diver that gets BIT seriously by a shark then dies, ultimately....the shark caused the death not actions immediately following. There would have been no blood loss, no shock, no loss of consciousness, no rapid ascent (if there was) if the shark had not bit the diver???
I would be interested in hearing when exactly the CG received the call and when the accident actually accured. If they were out of radio range, maybe that had some delay.
1) The information released stated he was brought to the surface by another quest on the boat. There was no report of a second diver with the bends or a embolism, wouldn't the rescuer suffered some symptoms if they to had made a rapid uncontrolled ascent??
2) Again the pain issue, I scream when I stup my toe, if it was me I would have been probably going "holly @!*#" on the way up.
3) I heard from a group of fisherman that were listening to the radio conversation back and forth during the actual rescue stated that the Coast Guard asked "can you control the bleeding" and the person on Shearwater replied "NO" then they stated "WE ARE TRYING TO HOLD HIM TOGETHER" I actually heard this from two sources, but I am sure the news will sooner or later get a copy of the CG tape, I think Miami records all major rescue ops.
Anyhow, I would call it diver error or panic if a diver SAW a shark and bolted to the surface. A diver that gets BIT seriously by a shark then dies, ultimately....the shark caused the death not actions immediately following. There would have been no blood loss, no shock, no loss of consciousness, no rapid ascent (if there was) if the shark had not bit the diver???
I would be interested in hearing when exactly the CG received the call and when the accident actually accured. If they were out of radio range, maybe that had some delay.
I dive and fish Monterey Bay..frequently Whites are seen while fishing around Ano Nuevo islands, local fisherman have witnessed first hand whites attacking seals..and seals have jumped onto fishing boats to avoid sharks...
On the other hand the shark reseachers have gone to the islands and dragged around seal sillouttes with out seeing one shark...for shark diving boats, the chumming was stopped after the out cry from local surfers and divers and fishermen...why take a chance with something that dangerous...the shark diving was allowed but without chumming...I have talked with some of the guys that work on these boats and they said that alot of the time the visibility is bad enough that the sharks have to get very close to see...they have also seen sharks come very close and the diver misses seeing it because they are looking in the wrong direction...
On the other hand the shark reseachers have gone to the islands and dragged around seal sillouttes with out seeing one shark...for shark diving boats, the chumming was stopped after the out cry from local surfers and divers and fishermen...why take a chance with something that dangerous...the shark diving was allowed but without chumming...I have talked with some of the guys that work on these boats and they said that alot of the time the visibility is bad enough that the sharks have to get very close to see...they have also seen sharks come very close and the diver misses seeing it because they are looking in the wrong direction...
Been reading everyone's comments and want to make it short and sweet:
* Cage diving to supposedly make shark encounters "safer" in the Bahamas doesn't exist. The one operation with a cage (or maybe a second chicken wire toy) doesn't even REQUIRE you to use it.
* More people have been nipped, bit, etc. by the supposedly "safe" / "less aggressive" Caribbean Reef shark commonly seen on shark dives.
* Feeding versus baiting is controversial, does ensure closer encounters for observation and photographs. People seek it out, and will pay for it just like deep rebreather training, etc.
* The theory of changed behaviour (not proven anywhere) would presume any boat anchoring near a shark dive location would immediately have sharks swarming all over ready to bite divers. Doesn't happen, never will. One example I've seen documented is Cocos Island where dozens if not hundreds of White Tip sharks hunt in packs at night. And divers follow along and film them without getting bit.
* Overall a very sad incident for Markus Groh and his family, but deaths happen in scuba diving for many more reasons than sharks. Read DAN's latest accident or fatality report.
The actual cause of death being private may also never be known. So speculation will rule. Like Dan Volker and others, it won't change my desire to go dive with these animals nor alter my opinion of how to do it as safely as possible.
Your choice is of course your choice. Just don't try and limit mine.
dhaas
* Cage diving to supposedly make shark encounters "safer" in the Bahamas doesn't exist. The one operation with a cage (or maybe a second chicken wire toy) doesn't even REQUIRE you to use it.
* More people have been nipped, bit, etc. by the supposedly "safe" / "less aggressive" Caribbean Reef shark commonly seen on shark dives.
* Feeding versus baiting is controversial, does ensure closer encounters for observation and photographs. People seek it out, and will pay for it just like deep rebreather training, etc.
* The theory of changed behaviour (not proven anywhere) would presume any boat anchoring near a shark dive location would immediately have sharks swarming all over ready to bite divers. Doesn't happen, never will. One example I've seen documented is Cocos Island where dozens if not hundreds of White Tip sharks hunt in packs at night. And divers follow along and film them without getting bit.
* Overall a very sad incident for Markus Groh and his family, but deaths happen in scuba diving for many more reasons than sharks. Read DAN's latest accident or fatality report.
The actual cause of death being private may also never be known. So speculation will rule. Like Dan Volker and others, it won't change my desire to go dive with these animals nor alter my opinion of how to do it as safely as possible.
Your choice is of course your choice. Just don't try and limit mine.
dhaas
deco_martini
Contributor
grassyknoll
Contributor
Now wait a minute, as you state changed behavior is "not proven anywhere", true, but it is not dis-proven either.
You then state that " any boat anchoring near a shark dive location would immediately have sharks swarming all over ready to bite divers.". That is stating the most extreme form of associated behavior and only serves to discredit your position. If you feed bears in Yellowstone they will be come agressive and break into cars, but they won't necesarilly "immediately have bears (sharks) swarming all over ready to bite hikers (divers). I would imagine any conditioned respinse is somwehat less than you have stated.
Sigh.......This is getting tiresome....
deco martini: No, me dying won't cause legislation to limit you. At least in the USA. Sharks mean more $$$ to Bahamas tourism than ever before, and they won't shoot themselves in the foot.
grassyknoll: It IS disproven by the the hundreds of thousands of divers who have made shark dives, many with more active feeding scenarios over the last 20+ years in the Bahamas alone. Your "proven theory" would indicate sharks even with no food near an area immediately swim up to divers aggressively, make test bites, etc. thus indicating "changed behavior". Again this simply does not happen.
Also, more bears simply walk to up to hiker's tents every year and attack and kill people. With their foodstuffs safely in a tree to NOT encourage food scavenging.
If people don't want to learn anything about sharks, go see sharks, photograph sharks or whatever I wish they would please just stay home and post on discussion forums. I never claimed to be an expert, but my hundreds of hours of real world experience sure make me more credible than a lot, if not most of the posters....
Now I'm sure I'll be labeled a
dhaas
deco martini: No, me dying won't cause legislation to limit you. At least in the USA. Sharks mean more $$$ to Bahamas tourism than ever before, and they won't shoot themselves in the foot.
grassyknoll: It IS disproven by the the hundreds of thousands of divers who have made shark dives, many with more active feeding scenarios over the last 20+ years in the Bahamas alone. Your "proven theory" would indicate sharks even with no food near an area immediately swim up to divers aggressively, make test bites, etc. thus indicating "changed behavior". Again this simply does not happen.
Also, more bears simply walk to up to hiker's tents every year and attack and kill people. With their foodstuffs safely in a tree to NOT encourage food scavenging.
If people don't want to learn anything about sharks, go see sharks, photograph sharks or whatever I wish they would please just stay home and post on discussion forums. I never claimed to be an expert, but my hundreds of hours of real world experience sure make me more credible than a lot, if not most of the posters....
Now I'm sure I'll be labeled a
dhaas
Aspendiver
Guest
deco_martini
Contributor
You couldn't be more wrong. Do you remember the "summer of the shark" (aka, the slow news summer of 2001)?
Most people credit it with leading to the Florida Shark feeding ban which had been in the works for several years but gained momentum and support from all the news coverage:
CNN.com - Florida panel embraces ban on shark feeding - September 7, 2001
Not only did Fish and Wildlife ban feeding dives, but a bill was actually proposed.
BBC News | AMERICAS | Florida proposal to ban shark feeding
If you have some evidence that sensational news stories about shark attacks where shark feeding is implicated don't give momentum to movements to ban feeding, please provide it.
- Status
Similar threads
