SHADOW DIVERS EXPOSED: The Real Saga of the U-869
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tonka97
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I enjoyed Shadow Divers too. Also bought Audio version.
Then found out that just about any (ANY) intriguing scene in Shadow Divers was indeed a fabrication to make Chatterton and Kohler look like heroes. :shakehead
Gary Gentile, author of 30 books on shipwreck diving, exposes the truth, step by documented step, in Shadow Divers Exposed:
http://www.ggentile.com/sdexposed.html
"The U-869 was one of more than 1,200 U-boats that were constructed for the Nazi war machine. It was sunk off the American eastern seaboard by a combination hedgehog and depth-charge attack. There were no survivors to tell the tragic tale.
Now, for the first time, the real saga of the U-869 can be told in full. Archival documents have established that the U-boat was sunk by two American destroyer escorts. Seven crewmembers of those aggressive warships have supplemented the official record with their personal recollections.
Shadow Divers Exposed works on a multitude of levels. It presents the actual circumstances that surrounded the loss of the U-869. It puts the discovery of the U-869 into perspective with other U-boats that have been found in American waters. It provides an overview of the U-boat war through accounts of other U-boat losses. And it corrects some of the gross errors, wild exaggerations, and deliberate distortions that filled the pages of Shadow Divers.
The author interviewed a number of witnesses whose testimony contradicted the theatrical plot and boastful embellishments that formed the essential ingredients of Shadow Divers. Some of these witnesses actually performed the deeds for which the chosen protagonists of Shadow Divers were given credit. These witnesses disputed many of the fictitious elements that ran rampant through the pages of Shadow Divers.
By means of forensic analyses of shipwreck collapse, torpedo mechanics, and U-boat survivors accounts, the present volume explains why the U-869 could not have been sunk by a circular run of its own torpedo - as Shadow Divers had its uninformed readers believe."
Most divers just don't care enough to bother with the accurate record of events.
Then found out that just about any (ANY) intriguing scene in Shadow Divers was indeed a fabrication to make Chatterton and Kohler look like heroes. :shakehead
Gary Gentile, author of 30 books on shipwreck diving, exposes the truth, step by documented step, in Shadow Divers Exposed:
http://www.ggentile.com/sdexposed.html
"The U-869 was one of more than 1,200 U-boats that were constructed for the Nazi war machine. It was sunk off the American eastern seaboard by a combination hedgehog and depth-charge attack. There were no survivors to tell the tragic tale.
Now, for the first time, the real saga of the U-869 can be told in full. Archival documents have established that the U-boat was sunk by two American destroyer escorts. Seven crewmembers of those aggressive warships have supplemented the official record with their personal recollections.
Shadow Divers Exposed works on a multitude of levels. It presents the actual circumstances that surrounded the loss of the U-869. It puts the discovery of the U-869 into perspective with other U-boats that have been found in American waters. It provides an overview of the U-boat war through accounts of other U-boat losses. And it corrects some of the gross errors, wild exaggerations, and deliberate distortions that filled the pages of Shadow Divers.
The author interviewed a number of witnesses whose testimony contradicted the theatrical plot and boastful embellishments that formed the essential ingredients of Shadow Divers. Some of these witnesses actually performed the deeds for which the chosen protagonists of Shadow Divers were given credit. These witnesses disputed many of the fictitious elements that ran rampant through the pages of Shadow Divers.
By means of forensic analyses of shipwreck collapse, torpedo mechanics, and U-boat survivors accounts, the present volume explains why the U-869 could not have been sunk by a circular run of its own torpedo - as Shadow Divers had its uninformed readers believe."
Most divers just don't care enough to bother with the accurate record of events.
tonka97:
It establishes no such thing. Read the report.
Gentile makes an assumption based on the fact that the two ships were in the general location at about the same time as the sub would have been arriving there. The crew was unable to spot any wreckage despite extensively bombing an object. They left because they were convinced they were bombing a wreck, they didn't call for a follow up hunter/killer group because they were convinced they were bombing a wreck, and the official report concluded they were bombing a wreck. Killing a sub was a major accomplishment and no commander would have missed a chance to claim a kill.
The circle runner theory is entirely compatible with the evidence and offers the best explanation. The sub stalked a convoy, lined up a target, and fired. The destroyers detected the sub and went to it. Before they got there the torpedo circled back and fatally blew up the sub. The destroyers closed in and bombed the wreck.
Or maybe one day we'll discover another wreck within a mile or two of the sub. Either way, the ships were attacking a stationary target, which a live sub would not have been.
H2Andy
Contributor
tonka97:
unless Gentile was there, watching everything unfold from BOTH above and below the water, and could be inside the minds of the two captains, he can't present the "actual circumstances" of the loss
all he can do is try to reconstruct it, as others have done, after the fact
he (and you) need to take a chill pill, dude
nothing personal, Tonka... i think you're a pretty interesting guy, but jeez...
Hate to say it because I do like most of Gentiles books but he does seem to have gotten bitter since someone else has made something without him. Now he just wants to cash in off Shadow Divers.
Spratman
Contributor
Agreed. I sat through one of his seminars on the USS Monitor. He ranted for two hours on how he hated the NOAA observer riding herd on him. The dive association that sponsored the event decided that he would not be coming back again.
Pir8, I got the same impression. No doubt of Gary's credential as a naval historian. I was a history major in college. After talking to some professors and reading books on WWII history, I found that history is subjective, not objective, and highly biased toward the historian writing the book.
My opinion is sour grapes....YMMV
Pir8, I got the same impression. No doubt of Gary's credential as a naval historian. I was a history major in college. After talking to some professors and reading books on WWII history, I found that history is subjective, not objective, and highly biased toward the historian writing the book.
My opinion is sour grapes....YMMV
tonka97
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ReefHound:
The quoted post is rife with fiction and error, and demonstrates a woeful absence of knowledge and understanding.
I spent hours posting Gary Gentile's informative quotes and facts, with the result that the usual 'keyboard bullies' had a field day with adolescent flames. The moderator joined the chortling and DELETED the quoted references, page numbers, and corrections.
This is why this thread now is devoid of information regarding what actually transpired in the research, discovery, exploration, and identification of U-869. The reader is well advised to obtain and read "Shadow Divers Exposed" by Gary Gentile. Decide for yourself! http://www.ggentile.com/sdexposed.html
John Chatterton and Richie Kohler appear to be GOLDEN with at least some of SB's moderators.
Love that Banner Ad!
Chaseh
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You spent hours posting Gentiles point of view, but have consistently ignored everyone else's point of view, including other divers that have posted here that were on the scene.
Why did that one book become the bible for you above every other opinion. Why is it accepted as absolute truth, while other witness accounts are ignored? Why do you keep repeating yourself and fail to respond to other accounts on this board?
Is this topic just an opportunity to be a troll? Are you just a shill for Gentile? What's the angle?
Why did that one book become the bible for you above every other opinion. Why is it accepted as absolute truth, while other witness accounts are ignored? Why do you keep repeating yourself and fail to respond to other accounts on this board?
Is this topic just an opportunity to be a troll? Are you just a shill for Gentile? What's the angle?
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
You are guilty of what you accuse others of.tonka97:
I will gladly sell you a banner ad for the same price. You will have the same protection that everyone gets on this board. Unfortunately, you seem to think it fair to flame those who disagree with you and see any and all disagreements as personal flames.tonka97:
AGAIN... it is essential that we keep the dialoge civil. Name calling is not appropriate in this forum.
tonka97:
Your saying it so does not make it so. You provided not a shred of evidence to back up your allegations or name-calling. Read Moyer's account of the two ships, not GG's biased interpretation. I did make one minor mistake - they initially called for the hunter killer group but then called it off.
Gary interviewed the men on those ships? He must have omitted this one: Sixty years after the attack, 92-year-old Charles Judson still recalls the night. I thought I was attacking a wreck, it never moved the whole time I attacked it.
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