Sexual Assault: Discussion

[Ishie]

There is very active damage being done to this man's reputation and career. It may very well be deserved, but allowing him to defend himself pending verification will at worst delay the truth.

What 'truth' is that? And if, as would be common practice on the internet, the original post was in his name but had not come from him, would that not do worse things to his reputation? Are you saying they should leave up a post that may not have been his?


"That may be your feeling but until you've personally experienced both sides of that coin you really are just guessing."

So then do you feel that a woman who has been raped/assaulted is not in a potentially more emotionally fragile state than a man accused of rape/assault? For the record, I would feel the same way even if this was a male/male assault. That's not to saying being falsely accused of something isn't horrible, life-changing and all of that, but since the victim is the one who is here, do you think it might not be a bit more traumatizing to be treated like the conniving female potentially wrecking this man's career, though the doubters do reluctantly admit, he 'may deserve it'?

"She had made up weeks of things I had said to "sexually harass" her. I had been tried and convicted before I had even known I had been accused. I was given the choice of signing a confession and agreement not to do it anymore or walk."

I actually wasn't referencing sexual harassment, which I view as a problem, but a different one. I was referring to sexual assault of the nature to which fonfon was alluding in her posts. Had she posted that her dive instructor had SPOKEN sexually inappropriate, even sexually malicious things to her, I would not feel I was insensitively shoving aside her emotional state.

I'm actually of the belief that a lot of the sexual harassment claims have gone too far anyway, because with speech, it is far easier to slip and say something that offends the wrong person. I'm sure I've done it.

It is harder to miscontrue or let slip physically sexually assaulting an individual, which grows worse by doing so in an environment where the victim must depend on you for his/her life. I don't know the exact nature of the attack, but actually a female DI, using the same power of experience over nonexperience, could attack a male student as well based on that factor.

Now that seems just a teeeensy bit more traumatizing, wouldn't you think? Cooperate or I will take away your power to breathe. Not your freedom; not your reputation, your LIFE. You don't even encounter the on-land assault/rape scenario where getting away from your assailant means you're out of danger. Even escape means you're a noob under 60 feet of ocean.

Forgive me if my sensitivies, given the circumstances, go to the victim? I am intrinsically suspicious of sexual harassment suits for the same reason you named. I am also of the opinion that a lot of people really need to lighten up about what constitutes offensiveness.

"I personally believe that something happened, but I know that someone else's life, carreer and reputation is being slung through the mud, and no one is being allowed to question anything."

Seems like things are being questioned. And it's nice that you believe something happened; it seems like many are almost assuming a hostility towards the victim coupled with 'evil female' scenarios. It's hard to see someone coming for support and seeing this come out of it, particularly in a case so sensitive.

Besides, if we are to believe his note, business is booming! (irony intended)

 

[Ishie]

"What surrounding circumstances? What facts do we really have beside PADI covering themselfs legally?"

Not sure his status now, but wasn't he in jail pretty much immediately? And are you not downplaying the importance of the issue just by stating PADI is simply covering themselves legally, without a knowledge of the depth of the investigation they performed? I'm not denying the legal issue, by the way, if the guy is a predator and continues representing PADI, the next vic can sue, but if they boot the guy and damage his business as a result of a false accusation, he can sue them too. Maybe trust PADI to cover their butts on BOTH sides of the issue?

"Would it be possible that if someone is being reported for damaging reefs and taking animals from a protected marine area, he could expect prosecution and hefty fines? Would it be possible that someone comes with a bigger scandal in order to avoid the prosecution and hefty fines?"

Possible, most things are. Likely? A brand new open water student who has been apparently abandoned by his instructor (since he was AWOL for three dives) collecting stuff from the bottom? Not legal, but seems like some fault would go to the instructor for not supervising him as a DI is supposed to? Additionally, the guy said nothing about reporting the guy, threatening to report the guy, or anything else. Just said that while he was apparently busy fighting with a panicky student that he saw fit to keep bringing down despite her embolism tendencies, he was also neglecting the husband whom he claims was collecting stuff on the bottom, which is better for the DI because had the husband been occupying himself by panicking alone and dying, the DI would be in even MORE trouble.

"Why are you casting any doubts in the guy's integrity?"

Because so far I haven't seen a convincing reason the poster is making this up and her posts display consistency and rationality (which of course, is not a sole reason), and the guy's response is one I find illogical and suspicious which causes me to further doubt his integrity.

"Besides, I just don't know what kind of support this board can give to a person that experienced such a horrible thing like sexual assault but I may underestimate the collective power of the board."

Group support is often an important factor of healing and in some people, provides better support than a 1:1 with a psych professional because you have many voices that you aren't paying for, and encounter people that may have encountered similar experiences and represent a 'normality' in an activity that the attacker turned deviant (ie, if you've been assaulted while jogging, which is a fairly common scenario, it can help to talk to 'normal' joggers, raises their awareness, and raises your own confidence).

 

[H2Andy]

Group support is often an important factor of healing and in some people, provides better support than a 1:1 with a psych professional because you have many voices that you aren't paying for, and encounter people that may have encountered similar experiences and represent a 'normality' in an activity that the attacker turned deviant (ie, if you've been assaulted while jogging, which is a fairly common scenario, it can help to talk to 'normal' joggers, raises their awareness, and raises your own confidence).

this is exactly why, even though this topic is very difficult to talk about, i think
we should continue talking about it.

 

[HammerNoMore]

So then do you feel that a woman who has been raped/assaulted is not in a potentially more emotionally fragile state than a man accused of rape/assault?

I feel that they are both horrible crimes and it's silly to try to prioritze them. And yes, I do believe that ruining a persons marriage, carreer, reputation, and life ranks right up there with instilling fear by exercising physical power. Richard Jewel was raped, just in a different manor.

But since the victim is the one who is here, do you think it might not be a bit more traumatizing to be treated like the conniving female potentially wrecking this man's career, though the doubters do reluctantly admit, he 'may deserve it'?

When you prove that the victim is not the one being censored I'll accept that arugment. Until then you are personally helping to harm a person on mere hearsay.

I actually wasn't referencing sexual harassment.

It is pretty much the same thing. It's about exercising power, either way. Are you actually impying that people lie about seuxal harassment but don't lie about sexual assault?

Seems like things are being questioned.

No every time someone questions it where the actual accusation happned it is zapped.

To sum up your agruments. You think it is better to ruin a mans life than to potentially inflict emotional pain on someone who might be a victim. That's so sad that you are so willing to ruin peoples lives and so sexist that you think its better to assume the woman is always right.

 

[ScubaNorth]

Sorry that this happened (truly). I just don't get it, this is a scuba board. Coming back over and over to read this thread seems a bit counter productive to healing. I am really not trying to be a jerk even if I come across that way. There are creeps in all walks of life and professions.

 

[H2Andy]

Coming back over and over to read this thread seems a bit counter productive to healing.

guy, i'm sorry... you don't know anything about healing from trauma, and that is
clear from your comment.

ok, nothing wrong with not knowing. we don't know what we don't know.

reliving the trauma is an integral part of healing. it must be done in a safe
environment. maybe the poster feels safe here. safe enough to start dealing
with this in "writing," perhaps as a "test" before speaking about it... who knows...

the point is, it is not counterproductive to healing.

Again so sorry that you went through this but seriously get real help.

ok, you obviously haven't read all her posts. she is in therapy and working on this
in a "serious" manner.

but talking about it like this is also "serious" help. you would know this if you knew
anything about healing from trauma.

just saying... don't mean to pick on you... lots of people have no clue about these
issues.

i know this from experience. before i could ever talk about the most traumatic
events of my life, i did a "dress rehersal" at a bulletin board, where no one knew me.
i wasn't thinking about it, it just happened.

and only after writing about stuff anonymously, was i able to realize tons of stuff
that i had to deal with. at which point, my life fell apart, and i ended up in a huge
clinical depression, combined with the ever-so-fun post traumatic stress disorder.
but that's a different story =)

the point is, this can be very healing for people

 

[markfm]

In a totally different situation, I wouldn't have believed until today that someone could have concocted a tale about finding a 1-1/2" piece of finger in a bowl of chili, replete with the finger, until today. I would have sworn that such a thing was grotesque, impossible to believe that it could be fabricated by someone, sickening. The accuser was credible right up until they weren't.

That's in part why I made my earlier comment, that I appreciate the insights the instructors can provide on their thought processes, how they conduct themselves as professionals. A particular real-world situation, as traumatic as it clearly was, can be difficult to air in a public forum, and frankly the "you're an idiot", "insensitive slug" kind of posts get old after a while. The darnedest thing is that there is real information in this thread, how people can/should act.

It sounds like this thread was split off to specifically allow a coherent discussion of the more general topic, improper acts, but people just don't want to step back from the particulars.

Ahh, well...

 

[markfm]

To quote the intro post to this thread "...to provide a discussion of sexual assault in the diving context in general..."

 

[H2Andy]

it's hard to make a thread go anywhere but where it wants to go =)

 

[HammerNoMore]

it must be done in a safe environment. maybe the poster feels safe here.

Safe environment? This is not, nor should it be forced to be a safe environment. This is an internet forum about scuba diving. One where accusations against dive operators are usually questioned heavily.

http://www.vaonline.org/ would be a much better choice.

James