Sexism discussion

[Raven C]

mgri once bubbled...
Would a woman expecting a man to carry the tanks be consider stereotyping?

PS. RavenC, Please tell me when I have placed my foot in my mouth so I will know when to shut up on this topic

Mark

I think the key here may be the word expecting. Asking is another issue. When I broke my wrist, just got my brace off last week, I asked for my buddy's help more while I organized the trunk or did other things that would be less likely to reinjure myself. And, I will say that he helped with dawning and doffing my BP and wing and adjusting my tank because of my injury but typically, we carry our own gear or the gear, whatever needs to be transported. It is true that he will tend to carry two tanks at a time to my one so sometimes he ends up moving tanks more than me but that is not because it is expected of him. To be honest, carrying the dive bags are usually heavier and that’s what I carry the most; partly because they have handles. LOL. Yeah I saw that thread about tank handles. I need to check into that.

I can tell you this. I went to the LDS Saturday morning to rent air and it was full of guys. I'd say at least 6 or 7. They were willing to check the psi in the tank before I paid for it and ask lots of questions but stood right there with their mouth open when I put it on my right shoulder and walked out with it. No one offered to carry it and I didn't ask for them to. Nor did I expect them to. It’s my gear so I expect that I should be able to manage it. That doesn’t mean I haven’t asked my buddy to grab a tank for me. He’s asked me to do the same. He’s asked me to make a few phone calls and get information for him but that doesn’t make me his secretary. When he says, "would you grab me a coke." Does that mean he's stereotyping - Fetch woman? NO. I would certainly tell him about it. Does it means he expects me to wait on him? No.

I will tell you that delivery and demeanor has a lot to do with all this. Simply put, the tone at which things are done and said make a lot of difference.

R

 

[chickdiver]

Hoya97 once bubbled...
Was at Manatee this past weekend for DUI demo days - first time in a drysuit. Interesting experience.

Do you know Ron Menkie?

No, I don't believe I am aquainted with him.

 

[neil]

nessum once bubbled...
hey neil, there's an idea in sociology (primarily the constructionalist theory) that we are endlessly filling "roles." This is also a large part of the feminist theory... that we fall into learned gender roles in all parts of our lives.

Understood. What gender roles do you see women falling into in diving? How would you support the theory? Two pages, single spaced, by Monday.

Neil

 

[PhotoTJ]

Diving is, in my experience, still considered a 'macho sport'. Like skydiving, it still attracts a better than average # of cro-magnons when compared to say, tennis.

You know, I'm not phrasing this right. In most sports you are going to find enough macho dipsh*ts that say or do enough dumb things to skew the balance. While most guys are ok, there will always be enough idiots doing and saying the wrong thing that women will always notice the jerks. (The reason I changed my tack is because of the Annika Sorenstam incedent. Golf, the most un-macho sport that there is, had guys acting stupid. So it's just a sports in general thing.) As long as women continue to take on non-traditional gender roles, be it sports or elsewhere, there will be "traditional" guys who behave stupidly. It's hard to be progressive in a male dominated, gender-biased society.

Sorry, but there it is.

 

[Maya]

It's all about respect...and it should be a human thing, not a gender thing...if I need help with something, I ask for it. If someone else needs help, and I can give it..I do. Should be this simple, shouldn't it?


Hoya97:

Do you know Ron Menkie?

Do you mean Ron Menke? If so, he used to be training director for NACD...I want to say around 1982 or so....I think he owns a dive shop in Kissimmee now.

 

[8buck]

Well my 2 psi.....

I am a gentleman I do not and will not ever expect a woman to do anything!

I may ask for help at times but I have been around the rodeo's long enough to know when a lady needs help. the only time i expect a woman to do something is when she is heading or heeling for me other than that I have two legs and two arms i can get up and get my own drinks make my own dinners and clean my own house..

But it is nice to do things for each other just because

I am kinda the romantic when it comes to ladies anything to put a smile on their face. but helping with gear and stuff whatever helps to get in the water faster or on the road quicker i think we all should help each other....

 

[FLArmyBrat]

I believe that when we take up a hobby/sport/lifestyle, we need to be able to take on whatever that brings with it. No matter our gender. Me and my SO/dive buddy went into this knowing that I do have certain physical limitations (mostly lifting restrictions). So it is pretty much understood that he carries the tanks and I drag the box on wheels. But as stubborn as I am I do lug the tanks in and out of the LDS for fills LOL.

The assumed (good bad or ugly) gender roles come to play when it is time to set up. Especially on a boat. He AUTOMATICALLY sets up my gear. I often don't even get the chance to touch my stuff until its time to put it on. I have had some women tell me that its sweet that he cares enough to do it for me and make sure its done right. I do trust him. And it is sweet. But the horror stories of women who have become uber dependant on their men to do things for them constantly ring in my ears. Some that don't even know HOW to set up their gear. So sometimes I have to "politely" push him away from my stuff and set it up quickly.

But on the other hand...it is assumed that I will take care of any paperwork involved...planning of trips, reservations etc. as well as making sure the log books are kept up. It is also up to me to "network" to meet new divers and find new places to dive (good thing I'm not shy eh?). But the good news is is that cleaning/storing is done completely together!!! Gotta love that!

I think we're slowly finding our groove. Neither of us seems to feel "put apon" in our "roles" as they stand now. But our communitcation seems to be strong enough that if things needed to change we could tell each other and it would be worked out. Thats how it should be in life and diving!

Laurel- The Frog Queen
:royal:

 

[smrtblnddiver]

Hoya97 once bubbled...
I teach a lot of women, and to be honest, about half fall back on their male partner for most everything - setting up equpment, carrying stuff and in general, getting them into the water with the least amount of effort.

Another 1/4 (values are approximate - this shouldn't add up to 100 percent) are intimated by the husband/boyfriend. They aren't allowed to set up their equipment and get chastised if they make a minor mistake.

The remaining quarter either are single or have a partner (not a dominant member) for a significant other.

Sexism? Probably. Institutionalized? No.

But, I would hazard to say that a lot of it could be avoided if women asserted themselves and understood that while it's a buddy team, every individual is responsible, not only for the buddy, but for themselves as well.

My wife is a diver - and a very, very good one. Do I carry her tanks? Yes. Does she carry other equipment? Yes. We are an equal team - the best possible situation!

Sorry if I stepped on toes. I really go the extra mile to be fair and the very last thing I want is to be accused of being sexist. Just thought I would air my observations to the folks in this forum!

Lee

I have to agree with what you have said. Also, I am EXTREMELY glad I went through diving as a single woman. Most of the time, I get treated just like any male diver and I love it but that may also be the attitudes up here. But, I didn't meet most of the divers I now hang around with until I had already been diving for a few years.

I have, however, seen the different relationships between men/women partners. I do have to say that the MALE half usually contributes heavily to the problem. He allows, and even encourages, the woman to depend on him.

I would flip if my SO tried to set my gear up all the time........

And yes, there is more than a large amount of "machoism" in this sport.

Melanie

 

[cobaltbabe]

smrtblnddiver once bubbled...


I would flip if my SO tried to set my gear up all the time........

But I have had men try to set my equipment up for me and I told them no. If something goes wrong with the setup, I don't want someone else taking the blame for it. Although I trust my dive partners with my life, I still would like to see the gauges and make sure things are set the way I want them and not the way someone else thinks they should be set up.

 

[BradB]

Great topic and as the husband of a relatively new diver, very pertinent. If you saw me on the boat you might think I am one of those "do it all for the helpless female guys". I tote the tanks and for sure my gear bag (way to heavy even for me) and always set up everything for my wife on the second dive. But at about 255 lbs I am a lot better built for toting than my 120 lb wife, not that she couldn't. Theres also the fact that cause she gets up every morning at 5 AM to go to the YMCA (while 3 days of the week I snooze till 7)and has subsequently gotten tendonitis I really don't want her further hurting herself. And then there is the fact that even with substantial quantities of anti-seasickness drugs ,if she even seriously looks down at her gear on the water she turns a bright shade of green. Therefore I set her up for the second dive.So the things I do I do not because I think she is not capable or equal to me but because these are the things I need to do so we can have the most fun while diving together.Then again after a week-end of diving while I drove in comfort to pick up some dinner she unloaded and got soaking all our gear. So it all works out.