seeking some advice on a good first reg setup

[divad]

opinions are all over the place.

Welcome to everywhere re anything.

 

[flyboy08]

I will have to check them out. I have heard the name but dont know much about them.

I dive with HOG and Deep6 and you just cant go wrong with either....make it easy on yourself...pick one of the two

 

[tmassey]

I’m in Forsyth county. I am just sorting out the differences between the dgx deep6 setup, the squibble, and the signature

From the source: What are the differences between the Deep Six DGX and Deep Six Signature regulators? | Dive Gear Express®

As for the scribble, it seems like a *less* feature complete version of the DGX first stage. Let's call it the Deep6 DS4... The Deep6 page on the Scribble first stage states: "Lacking a PVD coating, turret, has a standard HP seat, no teflon o-rings."

Deep6 is *great* about communicating one-on-one. Like crazy good, and very unlike almost any other company out there. Ask a question, get an honest, detailed answer -- sometimes honestly explaining mistakes they've made when necessary. Deep6 (and Hog, for that matter) has always been (IMHO) very poor in formal one-to-many communication: website, etc. I'm not going to go all "I know all better than them" (there's another thread for that already): they know their business, they know their customers, and what they do works for them. But even something as simple and obvious as a Regulator Comparison Chart (something nearly *EVERY* company that makes a family of products has!) would go a *long* way to helping address the confusion.

(And I think that the chart should include the DGX by Deep6, if for no other reason that because Deep6's name is on it, everyone asks the question!)

But then you get into issues where Deep6 changes things *frequently*: for example, when the regs are on sale, you don't get a first service, and when they're not you do. Hard to integrate that into a chart... It's part of why most companies don't change things like that nearly as frequently. But it's part of Deep6's charm (and for some, appeal), so... like I said, they seem to know their business.

 

[Diver below 83]

One thing that needs to be cleared up is that since your local to Georgia you are NOT LOCAL to DGX. So the reg set made by deep 6 sold THROUGH DGX May be the wrong choice for you. Secondly the parts kits are NOT included with the dgx sets like they are DIRECTLY through deep 6 with their sets.
Secondly the deep 6 signature regulators are a step above design and performance wise over the DGX sets. Not only do they include the parts kits but they also include the first services for free.
The scribble 1st sold directly through deep 6 is a different design than the model being sold by DGX. Yes they are both black and balanced. That’s it’s. Different designs other than that. While the scribble does NOT include the first service free it DOES include the parts kit.
Lastly DGX does no promote the end user working on their reg sets if they feel inclined to do so. Deep 6 DOES support their end users if they feel comfortable enough to work on their units and have the correct tools.

 

[tmassey]

After re-reading your initial question, I thought I would expand a little bit on what *I* understand to be the most significant differences between the regulators you're looking at -- for me personally.

A brief bit about my perspective: I have done something like 450 dives, virtually all on 1980's and 1990's vintage Sherwood Blizzard regulators. Sherwood regulators of that vintage are some of the absolute simplest and drop-dead reliable regulators around; they are *not* revered for their breathing performance and features, however. But I've used them quite happily and effectively for a decade or more. So maybe I'm not very sensitive to high-performance. Having said that, I just two months ago bought a brand new set of DGX by Deep6 doubles regs. Of course, I considered the Signatures; I did not actually know about the Scribbles before I bought what I did, but would not have bought the Scribbles anyway. Here was my thought process. Maybe it will be of value to you.

Those three regulators share a common ancestry. There's a great deal of politics, mud-slinging and misinformation about the history of this design and use throughout the regulator industry. I'm going to ignore all of that and just focus on these three as they stand before us right now.

The easiest ones to compare are the Deep6 Signature and the DGX by Deep6. For one thing, there's the most clear information.

The Deep6 Signature is the latest and greatest evolution of that design branch. It uses the very best materials, the very best techniques and a few new features to set it apart. This makes them at least theoretically better than any of the other regs in this group, in much the way as a Lexus is at least theoretically better than a Toyota. How much of that theoretical advantage is also a practical advantage depends -- both on the feature itself, and how you *value* the feature. Because, of course, those features come at a (usually financial) cost.

For example, chrome vs PVD coatings. Does it matter? I'm certain that there are real advantages to the newer coatings. What I know for myself is that I've never had a regulator have any issues on the exterior because of its coatings. I'm certain that others *will* say they've experienced issues, but for me, I have not. So, for me, any advantages of the exterior coatings are only theoretical, because the "old" ones work just fine for me. (Again: *Your* MMV.) So all three regs are fine for me.

Now, if someone had a reg that was chromed/PVD'd on the *inside*, I'd be *very* interested! (Yeah, sure, first stages are never supposed to get water in them....... ) (Given how blindingly obvious that seems to me, I'm assuming there's some sort of safety reason why they don't do that. But man would it be nice!)

Another difference is the internals. The biggest difference seems to be that the Signature uses more advanced materials: Teflon instead of Viton seems to be the biggest difference. This is supposed to provide lower work of breathing, better responsiveness, better cold-water performance, etc. But again: the "less advanced" materials have a long history of providing excellent characteristics, so even if the Signature is theoretically better, the difference is not one that is likely to make a large practical difference -- to me. (So says the guy happy with 30 year old Sherwoods: that's why it's important to know where I'm coming from!)

The Signature also includes a few different design elements not found on the others. Metal DIN wheel (but I've never seen a plastic one break), turret that can spin 360 degrees even with hoses attached (but I don't think I'll ask the turret to rotate more than a fraction of a turn anyway, even on stages), a "turbine poppet" (whatever that is), teflon-coated barrel, etc. Again, these are no doubt real improvements, but for me personally, I do not believe they will provide a noticeable value.

To me, the biggest value difference between the regs is the extras outside of the regs that the Signatures come with. Free service kits included, as well as the first service actually *performed* for free. For my doubles set, that is easily $100 in labor, plus $100 in parts. For someone who needs that, that is a *big* chunk of the cost difference between the DGX and Signatures, so there is virtually no financial reason to pick one over the other: it's simply pay me now or pay me later. The rest of the enhancements come along for free!

So, for many (most?) divers, there is literally no reason to buy anything but the Signatures. (Well, except the fact that you *can't* because they're not in stock right now. But that's supposed to change very soon.) Same cost, better features. Why not?

But I service my own regs. I *greatly prefer* to service my own regs. So -- for me -- the free service isn't something that provides value. The free included service parts kits *are* a real value for me. But, for me, so is the consistency and availability of parts. I would prefer a regulator that shares a common parts kit with a bunch of other regs out there, rather than a unique-to-that-model service parts kit (such as with the upgraded teflon o-rings), even though that means that the reg is only 90% as good. That's a big part of why I stayed with the Sherwoods for so very long: it needs like 8 parts to do a total rebuild, and all of them are highly generic. Boy did I love that!

So, for me, the DGX by Deep6 regulators were the ones I ended up with. And that's pretty consistent with most of my choices in life: high quality, but rarely the newest or the top of the line. And that's where I ended up on regs, too!

One note on the Scribble: It seems that this is a first stage where some noticeable features have been *removed*. (And, of course, offered at the lowest price.) There is no rotating turret like the other two regs. I personally would be fine with that as long as the hose routing is still OK. (The idea of the extra dynamic seal in the first stage has never been my favorite; but if it's good enough for the nervous types at GUE/Halcyon, I guess I shouldn't worry about it...). There's only 4 LP ports, 2 on each side. I'm less OK with that because of the hose routing issues that this can create. And seeing as every modern design of this style includes the 5 LP ports and the swivel, I figure this is a feature that is worth the few extra dollars, even if I'm not completely certain of it. So I would personally reject the Scribble, because the things they took away seemed to offer more than theoretical advantages. (Having said that, they might work really well as single-tank regs where hose routing needs are much different, in which case those advantages go back to being theoretical advantages!)


I don't know if this endlessly long description will have any value for you. Really, buying regulators is as personal a decision as buying a car. I think it's crazy to buy a brand new BMW. I rented one for a week and absolutely *loved* driving it; but even given that, it would *not* be worth paying more than double what I paid for my car. And the first time I scratched it (within a week of buying it, no doubt) would be just too painful... But there's a lot of BMW drivers making a very different decision than I did.

And I could see a BMW-driver-type looking at my reasoning above and being absolutely appalled that I turned down an obviously better reg with numerous objectively better features in order to save a couple of dollars and because I *liked* using inferior parts. I can understand that argument too! To each their own...

 

[Skulmoski]

Given that your regulator is a hyper critical piece of equipment, I would recommend getting something really good! We have two sets of Apeks regulators in our diving family (and Diverite BP?Ws). Consider getting two of the same regulators (e.g. XTX50 and XTX50 Octopus) because if you ever need to share air, it is quite likely the other person sharing your air by way of octopus will be quite frantic and will be placing a huge demand on the system. Another is that the you will only need to carry one model of regulator parts (e.g. O-Rings) if both are the same regulator model. Therefore don't skimp on the octopus, and perhaps save a bit longer and get something high end. They last and have a better re-sale value than intermediate models. If you will be travelling, then you might consider some of the funky lightweight regulators.

Good luck, GJS

 

[aviator8]

One thing that needs to be cleared up is that since your local to Georgia you are NOT LOCAL to DGX. So the reg set made by deep 6 sold THROUGH DGX May be the wrong choice for you. Secondly the parts kits are NOT included with the dgx sets like they are DIRECTLY through deep 6 with their sets.
Secondly the deep 6 signature regulators are a step above design and performance wise over the DGX sets. Not only do they include the parts kits but they also include the first services for free.
The scribble 1st sold directly through deep 6 is a different design than the model being sold by DGX. Yes they are both black and balanced. That’s it’s. Different designs other than that. While the scribble does NOT include the first service free it DOES include the parts kit.
Lastly DGX does no promote the end user working on their reg sets if they feel inclined to do so. Deep 6 DOES support their end users if they feel comfortable enough to work on their units and have the correct tools.

Good points

 

[aviator8]

After re-reading your initial question, I thought I would expand a little bit on what *I* understand to be the most significant differences between the regulators you're looking at -- for me personally.

A brief bit about my perspective: I have done something like 450 dives, virtually all on 1980's and 1990's vintage Sherwood Blizzard regulators. Sherwood regulators of that vintage are some of the absolute simplest and drop-dead reliable regulators around; they are *not* revered for their breathing performance and features, however. But I've used them quite happily and effectively for a decade or more. So maybe I'm not very sensitive to high-performance. Having said that, I just two months ago bought a brand new set of DGX by Deep6 doubles regs. Of course, I considered the Signatures; I did not actually know about the Scribbles before I bought what I did, but would not have bought the Scribbles anyway. Here was my thought process. Maybe it will be of value to you.

Those three regulators share a common ancestry. There's a great deal of politics, mud-slinging and misinformation about the history of this design and use throughout the regulator industry. I'm going to ignore all of that and just focus on these three as they stand before us right now.

The easiest ones to compare are the Deep6 Signature and the DGX by Deep6. For one thing, there's the most clear information.

The Deep6 Signature is the latest and greatest evolution of that design branch. It uses the very best materials, the very best techniques and a few new features to set it apart. This makes them at least theoretically better than any of the other regs in this group, in much the way as a Lexus is at least theoretically better than a Toyota. How much of that theoretical advantage is also a practical advantage depends -- both on the feature itself, and how you *value* the feature. Because, of course, those features come at a (usually financial) cost.

For example, chrome vs PVD coatings. Does it matter? I'm certain that there are real advantages to the newer coatings. What I know for myself is that I've never had a regulator have any issues on the exterior because of its coatings. I'm certain that others *will* say they've experienced issues, but for me, I have not. So, for me, any advantages of the exterior coatings are only theoretical, because the "old" ones work just fine for me. (Again: *Your* MMV.) So all three regs are fine for me.

Now, if someone had a reg that was chromed/PVD'd on the *inside*, I'd be *very* interested! (Yeah, sure, first stages are never supposed to get water in them....... ) (Given how blindingly obvious that seems to me, I'm assuming there's some sort of safety reason why they don't do that. But man would it be nice!)

Another difference is the internals. The biggest difference seems to be that the Signature uses more advanced materials: Teflon instead of Viton seems to be the biggest difference. This is supposed to provide lower work of breathing, better responsiveness, better cold-water performance, etc. But again: the "less advanced" materials have a long history of providing excellent characteristics, so even if the Signature is theoretically better, the difference is not one that is likely to make a large practical difference -- to me. (So says the guy happy with 30 year old Sherwoods: that's why it's important to know where I'm coming from!)

The Signature also includes a few different design elements not found on the others. Metal DIN wheel (but I've never seen a plastic one break), turret that can spin 360 degrees even with hoses attached (but I don't think I'll ask the turret to rotate more than a fraction of a turn anyway, even on stages), a "turbine poppet" (whatever that is), teflon-coated barrel, etc. Again, these are no doubt real improvements, but for me personally, I do not believe they will provide a noticeable value.

To me, the biggest value difference between the regs is the extras outside of the regs that the Signatures come with. Free service kits included, as well as the first service actually *performed* for free. For my doubles set, that is easily $100 in labor, plus $100 in parts. For someone who needs that, that is a *big* chunk of the cost difference between the DGX and Signatures, so there is virtually no financial reason to pick one over the other: it's simply pay me now or pay me later. The rest of the enhancements come along for free!

So, for many (most?) divers, there is literally no reason to buy anything but the Signatures. (Well, except the fact that you *can't* because they're not in stock right now. But that's supposed to change very soon.) Same cost, better features. Why not?

But I service my own regs. I *greatly prefer* to service my own regs. So -- for me -- the free service isn't something that provides value. The free included service parts kits *are* a real value for me. But, for me, so is the consistency and availability of parts. I would prefer a regulator that shares a common parts kit with a bunch of other regs out there, rather than a unique-to-that-model service parts kit (such as with the upgraded teflon o-rings), even though that means that the reg is only 90% as good. That's a big part of why I stayed with the Sherwoods for so very long: it needs like 8 parts to do a total rebuild, and all of them are highly generic. Boy did I love that!

So, for me, the DGX by Deep6 regulators were the ones I ended up with. And that's pretty consistent with most of my choices in life: high quality, but rarely the newest or the top of the line. And that's where I ended up on regs, too!

One note on the Scribble: It seems that this is a first stage where some noticeable features have been *removed*. (And, of course, offered at the lowest price.) There is no rotating turret like the other two regs. I personally would be fine with that as long as the hose routing is still OK. (The idea of the extra dynamic seal in the first stage has never been my favorite; but if it's good enough for the nervous types at GUE/Halcyon, I guess I shouldn't worry about it...). There's only 4 LP ports, 2 on each side. I'm less OK with that because of the hose routing issues that this can create. And seeing as every modern design of this style includes the 5 LP ports and the swivel, I figure this is a feature that is worth the few extra dollars, even if I'm not completely certain of it. So I would personally reject the Scribble, because the things they took away seemed to offer more than theoretical advantages. (Having said that, they might work really well as single-tank regs where hose routing needs are much different, in which case those advantages go back to being theoretical advantages!)


I don't know if this endlessly long description will have any value for you. Really, buying regulators is as personal a decision as buying a car. I think it's crazy to buy a brand new BMW. I rented one for a week and absolutely *loved* driving it; but even given that, it would *not* be worth paying more than double what I paid for my car. And the first time I scratched it (within a week of buying it, no doubt) would be just too painful... But there's a lot of BMW drivers making a very different decision than I did.

And I could see a BMW-driver-type looking at my reasoning above and being absolutely appalled that I turned down an obviously better reg with numerous objectively better features in order to save a couple of dollars and because I *liked* using inferior parts. I can understand that argument too! To each their own...

You approach things very much like I do. This is all very detailed information. Thanks for the input. I am thinking signature fits the bill best now. Not sure when stock will be filled though.

 

[aviator8]

@aviator8 If you have any questions about our products we are here to help. Our warehouse in in Forsyth, where in GA are you?

Pm sent