Crush
Contributor
If tt5five thumbed the dive and if the DM signaled that they should stay with him (these are assumptions which may be incorrect), there was no miscommunication, rather, the situation would border on negligence.
Seeking Input on Low Air - No Air Situation
- Thread starter tt5five
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If tt5five thumbed the dive and if the DM signaled that they should stay with him (these are assumptions which may be incorrect), there was no miscommunication, rather, the situation would border on negligence.
Glad it turned out okay and sounds like you learned a lot. Some fantastic advice from various people. Good for you to seek feedback too! That's how we learn.
My thoughts are about your role as the Dad in this situation. Your son is going to follow your lead. Even though you're both supposed to think for yourselves, most 14 year olds are going to do what Dad says, meaning you not only have to watch out for yourself, but for junior too.
What that means for me is that when I take my kids out on a dive, my focus is on them. If I can't ensure their safe return from that dive, we're not doing it. If things are too much for me to keep track of both of them, I'll have a trusted buddy, or even hire someone to be a buddy. And while we're supposed to be watching out for each other, the truth is, I set myself up for solo diving - that way I can help them if they need it, but take care of myself if I need it.
Given what you shared, my thoughts are, get more experience yourself before you take junior out so that you'll be able to watch over him better in the future. Just my opinion.
My thoughts are about your role as the Dad in this situation. Your son is going to follow your lead. Even though you're both supposed to think for yourselves, most 14 year olds are going to do what Dad says, meaning you not only have to watch out for yourself, but for junior too.
What that means for me is that when I take my kids out on a dive, my focus is on them. If I can't ensure their safe return from that dive, we're not doing it. If things are too much for me to keep track of both of them, I'll have a trusted buddy, or even hire someone to be a buddy. And while we're supposed to be watching out for each other, the truth is, I set myself up for solo diving - that way I can help them if they need it, but take care of myself if I need it.
Given what you shared, my thoughts are, get more experience yourself before you take junior out so that you'll be able to watch over him better in the future. Just my opinion.
BabyDuck
Contributor
a couple of points that haven't been hit on in this thread yet...
1 - you say you signaled your gas numbers to the dm. a dm at a resort area should know most of the popular ways to do this, BUT!! are you aware that there are at least 6 ways i can think of to tell gas? and that's without straining my brain. it is possible he had no clue what you were trying to tell him. of course, it is also entirely possible he knew exactly what you were saying and was ignoring you, but i'm just throwing this out there.
2 - a thumb is a command. if you gave the dm a thumb and nothing else, his only response should be a returned thumb and everyone goes back to the anchor line. the other possible response besides a returned thumb is something along the lines of 'yes, we're going up, let's go this way just a short bit to get back to the anchor line'. no response? a response that's not a thumb or some other 'you betcha, going up' sorta dealie? wrong answer. you & your group do what's right for you, and that's find the line & go up. this is something not stressed as much in open water as it should be, but a thumb is not a suggestion unless the giver clearly indicates in some pre-arranged way that it is. (like 'question. thumb.' or 'shrug. thumb.' whatever the buddies agree on to mean 'eh, i'm sorta done with this dive unless you have a good reason to hang out another 5 minutes. oh, you want one more picture? ok, then after that we're going up.') to reiterate, a thumb is not a suggestion. it is a command. the accepted response is another thumb and an ascent.
1 - you say you signaled your gas numbers to the dm. a dm at a resort area should know most of the popular ways to do this, BUT!! are you aware that there are at least 6 ways i can think of to tell gas? and that's without straining my brain. it is possible he had no clue what you were trying to tell him. of course, it is also entirely possible he knew exactly what you were saying and was ignoring you, but i'm just throwing this out there.
2 - a thumb is a command. if you gave the dm a thumb and nothing else, his only response should be a returned thumb and everyone goes back to the anchor line. the other possible response besides a returned thumb is something along the lines of 'yes, we're going up, let's go this way just a short bit to get back to the anchor line'. no response? a response that's not a thumb or some other 'you betcha, going up' sorta dealie? wrong answer. you & your group do what's right for you, and that's find the line & go up. this is something not stressed as much in open water as it should be, but a thumb is not a suggestion unless the giver clearly indicates in some pre-arranged way that it is. (like 'question. thumb.' or 'shrug. thumb.' whatever the buddies agree on to mean 'eh, i'm sorta done with this dive unless you have a good reason to hang out another 5 minutes. oh, you want one more picture? ok, then after that we're going up.') to reiterate, a thumb is not a suggestion. it is a command. the accepted response is another thumb and an ascent.
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seaducer
Contributor
That is a good point, most kids will follow their parents even if they think they are right, most do not have the self confidence to follow their training in these situations, so it is all the more important that parents who dive with their kids are well versed in the skills and knowledge...and now that this has happened and lessons are presented some wisdom too.
TexasKaren68
Contributor
I love Scubaboard! I have a whopping six dives under my belt and already feel like I know more than people who have dozens of dives, but never read SB 
Some important things I've picked up on since joining SB are that nobody controls how long you stay under, except YOU. Check your air frequently. Always stick with your buddy, unless he's being a jerk and won't go up when you're almost out of air. It's no problem to cut a dive short, for ANY reason; if your buddy wants to go up, you go too and don't complain. If you're going to do boat dives, learn to use an SMB and always carry one with you. "Trust me" dives can be deadly.
Some important things I've picked up on since joining SB are that nobody controls how long you stay under, except YOU. Check your air frequently. Always stick with your buddy, unless he's being a jerk and won't go up when you're almost out of air. It's no problem to cut a dive short, for ANY reason; if your buddy wants to go up, you go too and don't complain. If you're going to do boat dives, learn to use an SMB and always carry one with you. "Trust me" dives can be deadly.
I don't think it's been determined that we are talking to Dad...it could be Mom. The point is the same of course.
It seems unclear to several people on here even though it's been repeated but turn pressure is going to involve a number like 1800 psi and not 800 psi. 800 psi would be (possibly) the ascent pressure. Really two very different concepts.
I wouldn't be too hard on the DM. I'm sure there is at least some miscommunication. The DM is there to guide the group. Frequently people flash their spg to a DM without the DM really being sure of the number. Afterall that's the divers responsibility. The DM is guiding the group. If you need to do something that the rest of the group doesn't need to do...do it!
If the choice is to run out of air or to drift away from the boat...drift and ascend. Better to turn before that is an issue of course. You can also at a minimum get higher in the water column (current permitting) if you are going to go back to the anchor. Being shallower will reduce your air usage.
It seems unclear to several people on here even though it's been repeated but turn pressure is going to involve a number like 1800 psi and not 800 psi. 800 psi would be (possibly) the ascent pressure. Really two very different concepts.
I wouldn't be too hard on the DM. I'm sure there is at least some miscommunication. The DM is there to guide the group. Frequently people flash their spg to a DM without the DM really being sure of the number. Afterall that's the divers responsibility. The DM is guiding the group. If you need to do something that the rest of the group doesn't need to do...do it!
If the choice is to run out of air or to drift away from the boat...drift and ascend. Better to turn before that is an issue of course. You can also at a minimum get higher in the water column (current permitting) if you are going to go back to the anchor. Being shallower will reduce your air usage.
BabyDuck
Contributor
karen, that's awesome. a big 'ok' to you, since a big 'thumbs up' would be ending the dive!
My husband teaches his students, "The gas in your tank is your life expectancy." Sounds a bit morbid, but I hope it drills home the idea that running out of gas while you are still underwater is a potentially lethal occurrence.
It sometimes surprises me how willing people are to follow a guide into mortal peril (and I'm not exaggerating). I would not follow a guide into an avalanche zone, or let someone else talk me into driving fast on icy pavement. But people quite often seem to follow dive guides into low on air situations. The dive guide can't put more air in your tank!
I'm quite sure you have learned a great deal from this experience, and I'm very glad you posted it, because any opportunity we have to present Bob's and Lamont's articles to the SB readership is a valuable one. Learning to manage one's gas is a critical part of staying safe underwater, and as you learned, there are a lot of variables besides just depth that can affect the strategy you use for apportioning your gas for the parts of the dive. Glad you guys got home safe, and I'm sure it won't happen again!
It sometimes surprises me how willing people are to follow a guide into mortal peril (and I'm not exaggerating). I would not follow a guide into an avalanche zone, or let someone else talk me into driving fast on icy pavement. But people quite often seem to follow dive guides into low on air situations. The dive guide can't put more air in your tank!
I'm quite sure you have learned a great deal from this experience, and I'm very glad you posted it, because any opportunity we have to present Bob's and Lamont's articles to the SB readership is a valuable one. Learning to manage one's gas is a critical part of staying safe underwater, and as you learned, there are a lot of variables besides just depth that can affect the strategy you use for apportioning your gas for the parts of the dive. Glad you guys got home safe, and I'm sure it won't happen again!
Bubbletrubble
Contributor
@Crush: tt5five never specifically stated that he "thumbed" the dive. According to my training (PADI), thumbing the dive communicates a desire to immediately abort the dive. As BabyDuck pointed out, the thumb should be acknowledged by the diver's buddy/buddies with another thumb gesture and the buddy team should be headed toward the surface. FWIW, I don't think that a buddy team thumbing a dive necessitates that the entire group being led by a DM should have to abort the dive as well.
On a side note, when it comes to a DM asking me to do something underwater that's dangerous (ignore turn pressure, ignore rock bottom, go deeper than the dive plan, follow him into an overhead environment, violate NDLs), I will interpret his words/signals merely as "suggestions" and follow my instincts to stick with whatever plan my buddy team agreed upon in pre-dive planning.
If tt5five did, in fact, use his thumb to indicate to the DM his desire to surface immediately, then presumably he was only doing it out of courtesy to inform the DM of the actions of his buddy team. If I were in tt5five's shoes and had reached my turn pressure, I would have gotten the attention of the DM, pointed at my buddy and me, given the thumb sign or turn-around sign (depending on whatever action was more appropriate), and then waved bye-bye (to signify that we weren't in any distress).
If I wanted the DM to surface with me or my buddy (because one or both of us were in distress), I would point to the DM, give the thumb signal, and then give the "together" signal (two index fingers together). I probably wouldn't wait for the DM to respond since my buddy and I would be occupied managing our crisis.
I love Scubaboard! I have a whopping six dives under my belt and already feel like I know more than people who have dozens of dives, but never read SB
Some important things I've picked up on since joining SB are that nobody controls how long you stay under, except YOU. Check your air frequently. Always stick with your buddy, unless he's being a jerk and won't go up when you're almost out of air. It's no problem to cut a dive short, for ANY reason; if your buddy wants to go up, you go too and don't complain. If you're going to do boat dives, learn to use an SMB and always carry one with you. "Trust me" dives can be deadly.
You just made my day!
I know the board can be a bit intimidating at times to new divers and new posters, so it's good to know that amid the sometimes heated discussions, that the right information makes it's way to the right people.
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