sea and sea dx-8000g

[BKP]

The first issue is when you "preview" the picture in the LCD. When you are shooting in manual and crank down the F-stop and increase the shutter to get the nice dark blues, it is VERY difficult to see the subject because the LCD tries to give you a "real-time" view with the settings taken into account (it doesn't realize the strobe will fill the image with enough light). There is no way (as there is on other cameras) to have the LCD view an uncompensated image with all available light.

Another real issue I found was (despite the review referenced earlier in this thread) the picture noise was not acceptable to me. Even at ISO 100, the noise was very noticable in the blues and in other areas of the photos (you can click on these I posted and see what I mean). ISO 200 was not even an option really, so you are really limited and the quality of the image is going to suffer.

The flash/write speed is really slow. It may have a fast shutter speed, but the write speed was pretty slow and the flash did not recharge until the write was finished so it would take even that much longer. You wouldn't believe how many shots I missed because it would take too long to recharge.

Finally, and this wasn't a huge problem, but the "RAW" format is some sort of special TIF image that many programs have issues reading. The noise was still present in the TIF so it made no difference to me and I didn't use it.

All in all, the camera was pretty good for someone wanting to take beginner pictures, but if you wanted something higher quality and be able to shoot 100+ pictures on a dive, then it probably won't work for you. I ended up getting the D200 as my new camera to replace that 8000G and I LOVE it.. of course, that is a totally different animal.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/rjsimp/Cayman062006/M0010121.jpg

Rich, I agree with you about the LCD screen... too small, too dark. I can't say it's hampered my aim too much ('cept when I came nose to snout with a 'cuda camo'd in some bottom weeds... I took a shot backing off, and just caught it in the corner of the shot).

RAW format... I don't believe the 8000G even has a RAW format, so, I'm not sure what you're referencing.

Write speed will depend on two things. Since it's a high megapixel camera, if you have it set to a one of the top resolutions (which results in pics in the multi-megabytes), it's going to take longer to write. That will be true of any cam, and isn't typically useful for printing or saving (unless you're going to be blowing it up to 11x14 or larger). However, even then, it can still be somewhat mitigated by using a higher speed SD card (the newer cards can be written much faster then the internal memory, or the lower cost cards).

Finally (and I don't have an external strobe, so I can't comment authoritatively), an external strobe can be fired independently on the 8000D, and cycled much faster, if you're looking to speed up the process. This wouldn't interfere with the shutter delay, which is *very* fast.

I do agree it's not meant to be a professional rig, and as such has it's limitations. However, I kept my cost under a grand, and I'm happy... Glad you are too, with the D200.

-Barry

 

[rjsimp]

Rich, I agree with you about the LCD screen... too small, too dark. I can't say it's hampered my aim too much ('cept when I came nose to snout with a 'cuda camo'd in some bottom weeds... I took a shot backing off, and just caught it in the corner of the shot).

RAW format... I don't believe the 8000G even has a RAW format, so, I'm not sure what you're referencing.

Write speed will depend on two things. Since it's a high megapixel camera, if you have it set to a one of the top resolutions (which results in pics in the multi-megabytes), it's going to take longer to write. That will be true of any cam, and isn't typically useful for printing or saving (unless you're going to be blowing it up to 11x14 or larger). However, even then, it can still be somewhat mitigated by using a higher speed SD card (the newer cards can be written much faster then the internal memory, or the lower cost cards).

Finally (and I don't have an external strobe, so I can't comment authoritatively), an external strobe can be fired independently on the 8000D, and cycled much faster, if you're looking to speed up the process. This wouldn't interfere with the shutter delay, which is *very* fast.

I do agree it's not meant to be a professional rig, and as such has it's limitations. However, I kept my cost under a grand, and I'm happy... Glad you are too, with the D200.

-Barry

Barry,

The LCD screen (as you pointed out) is a real problem in shots where you have the settings set to something like a small F stop and a shutter of 1/125 or faster. You can point the camera at a coral and only see the outline of it, you can't see the fish swimming in front of it. I prefer to be able to see what I am shooting.

The 8000g does have a "raw" mode, but its not a typical RAW. Its just a TIF file that has some special information that makes it incompatible with some editors. Not what I would call RAW, but Sea & Sea calls it that.

I don't know about you, but I take all my shots in maximum resolution. The reason for that is obvious I would think. You use an example of printing. Well, at 300dpi (which is typical for high quality) an 8MP camera will only give you an 8X10" at full res. Now, that doesn't mean you can't blow it up, but you will introduce more visual artifacts in your prints. Even if you are only looking to view them on the computer, a higher res picture is better because you have more information available when you reduce the size. This helps when cleaning up a picture. So, the write speed at maximum resolution IS important and in the 8000g's case is about 5 seconds (with a 130x speed SD card).

Finally, I used the 8000g with an external strobe (YS-90 Auto) and you should know that the ONLY way you can fire an external strobe is through a fiber optic sync or other optical sync method. There is no TTL or wired sync cord. This means that the 8000g MUST fire its internal strobe in order to fire an external strobe. Since the camera doesn't have a setting to adjust the power output of the internal strobe, it fires at full power and takes another 8 seconds or so to recycle (with high power NIMH batteries) no matter how fast the external strobe recycles. Therefore, you are looking at about 12-14 seconds to recycle between each shot.

There are better point and shoot options. For example, the Olympus SP350 can use TTL and a normal sync cord. This option is what my Wife uses and the results are 1000% better than the 8000g. Much less noise, and better features and capabilites. Useability in the underwater case is far better with the Olympus over the 8000g also. Finally, the D200 and other digital SLRs can recycle (because of internal buffering) to take the next picture virtually immediately. Its just the external strobe recycle time you wait for which is a second or two. So, I can shoot every 2 seconds vs every 12-14 seconds in full 10MP RAW mode. The Olympus is ready to shoot again every 5 seconds in JPG full res, and every 7 seconds in full RAW (yes real raw) mode.

I don't mean to say the 8000g is worse than anything else on the market, I just mean to say for less money than the 8000g, you can have a much better set up and it is worth checking out.

 

[alcina]

Finally, I used the 8000g with an external strobe (YS-90 Auto) and you should know that the ONLY way you can fire an external strobe is through a fiber optic sync or other optical sync method. There is no TTL or wired sync cord. This means that the 8000g MUST fire its internal strobe in order to fire an external strobe.

OK, I've been reading this thread carefully and this is a very important consideration, imho. Other cameras use a fibre optic cable to fire (such as the Oly 5050) but you mask the internal flash so the internal flash does not impact your photos. I have also used a slave strobe (Ikelite with a slave sensor) that fired when my Canon A70 did BUT I was able to turn the internal A70 flash way down and did not have a problem with backscatter and this method. TTL and hard wired synch cords are nice, but not, in my experience vital.

Now here's the really important stuff that I see:

Since the camera doesn't have a setting to adjust the power output of the internal strobe, it fires at full power and takes another 8 seconds or so to recycle (with high power NIMH batteries) no matter how fast the external strobe recycles.

Most importantly to this point is the recycle time - in the Oly 5050 or A70, for example, there was no real recycle time that I ever noticed. It was just ready to go again. Once you start talking about 7+ seconds you are talking a lifetime!

A secondary note on this would be that you'll have to watch your battery - and this might mean changing on the boat between dives. Always nice to avoid where possible.

None of these things are killers, but they are worth knowing about.

 

[rjsimp]

None of these things are killers, but they are worth knowing about.

Exactly my point. I think anyone looking at the 8000g should be aware of the issues (and there are issues) before buying. Will it take good pictures? Yes, it will take an okay picture but it is more work to get it than with other point and shoot options for the same or less money.

I did a private session with Cathy Church when I had the 8000g in June, and we had to use a ton of electrical tape to block out the internal flash completely to avoid back scatter. Since it is a clear case and it was firing at full power, you can't just use the case as it comes stock or you will end up with back scatter for sure. Once we shot some pictures, she was really amazed at the noise on the pictures also. Very noticable as the picture gets darker with blues especially.

The flash really only NEEDS to fire at a low power (enough to sync the external strobe) and I am sure the camera would recycle a little faster, but when it does a full dump each time, it does take a (what seems like forever) while. Also, fiber optic sync is less reliable and you will get misfires which is a killer because of the recycle time.

When a camera uses a hard wired sync cord, at least the internal flash doesn't fire so the camera's batteries last longer and you don't have the light leakage issue. The camera then cycles faster and it is also much more reliable.

These are just things to keep in mind. You do have choices when buying a point and shoot and you should do research on all your choices before buying..

 

[alcina]

Also, fiber optic sync is less reliable and you will get misfires which is a killer because of the recycle time.

Just to be clear - we are still talking about your experience with the 8000DG here, not a blanket statement,right?

I've used the fibre optic with several cameras (Oly and Canon...in fact, still use it) for years as well as run them through our hire cameras - never had a problem with misfiring, not firing at all or anything else. The system always worked.

Can it have glitches? I'm sure it can - just like any other system out there.

 

[rjsimp]

Just to be clear - we are still talking about your experience with the 8000DG here, not a blanket statement,right?

I've used the fibre optic with several cameras (Oly and Canon...in fact, still use it) for years as well as run them through our hire cameras - never had a problem with misfiring, not firing at all or anything else. The system always worked.

Can it have glitches? I'm sure it can - just like any other system out there.

Well as far as fiber optic sync cords go. I have had them on 3 different cameras but all with the Sea & Sea YS-90 Auto stobe and I can say that all 3 cameras have potential of misfires with optical sync. It could be the sensor on the YS-90 is not as good as it should be, but in general there are several points of failure with a optical sync so I still say that a wired solution is better in general. Why not have a wired solution if it can be done for the same price?

BTW, when I say "misfire" I mean not fire at all.. Not talking about a fire without a signal.

 

[BKP]

Barry,

The LCD screen (as you pointed out) is a real problem in shots where you have the settings set to something like a small F stop and a shutter of 1/125 or faster. You can point the camera at a coral and only see the outline of it, you can't see the fish swimming in front of it. I prefer to be able to see what I am shooting.

The 8000g does have a "raw" mode, but its not a typical RAW. Its just a TIF file that has some special information that makes it incompatible with some editors. Not what I would call RAW, but Sea & Sea calls it that.

I don't know about you, but I take all my shots in maximum resolution. The reason for that is obvious I would think. You use an example of printing. Well, at 300dpi (which is typical for high quality) an 8MP camera will only give you an 8X10" at full res. Now, that doesn't mean you can't blow it up, but you will introduce more visual artifacts in your prints. Even if you are only looking to view them on the computer, a higher res picture is better because you have more information available when you reduce the size. This helps when cleaning up a picture. So, the write speed at maximum resolution IS important and in the 8000g's case is about 5 seconds (with a 130x speed SD card).

Finally, I used the 8000g with an external strobe (YS-90 Auto) and you should know that the ONLY way you can fire an external strobe is through a fiber optic sync or other optical sync method. There is no TTL or wired sync cord. This means that the 8000g MUST fire its internal strobe in order to fire an external strobe. Since the camera doesn't have a setting to adjust the power output of the internal strobe, it fires at full power and takes another 8 seconds or so to recycle (with high power NIMH batteries) no matter how fast the external strobe recycles. Therefore, you are looking at about 12-14 seconds to recycle between each shot.

There are better point and shoot options. For example, the Olympus SP350 can use TTL and a normal sync cord. This option is what my Wife uses and the results are 1000% better than the 8000g. Much less noise, and better features and capabilites. Useability in the underwater case is far better with the Olympus over the 8000g also. Finally, the D200 and other digital SLRs can recycle (because of internal buffering) to take the next picture virtually immediately. Its just the external strobe recycle time you wait for which is a second or two. So, I can shoot every 2 seconds vs every 12-14 seconds in full 10MP RAW mode. The Olympus is ready to shoot again every 5 seconds in JPG full res, and every 7 seconds in full RAW (yes real raw) mode.

I don't mean to say the 8000g is worse than anything else on the market, I just mean to say for less money than the 8000g, you can have a much better set up and it is worth checking out.

Good points, and again, as I mentioned I haven't used an external strobe (picture taking for me is incidental), so I can't comment on it. I was going on what Sea&Sea had to say about it.

As for DPI, that's a reference only used in the much older software programs, and isn't relevant in digital photography. PPI (pixels per inch) is now relevant. The internal "DPI" for most digital cameras is now set to 72dpi, regardless of the resolution (PPI). Resolution becomes relevant when you're printing, and have to specify, as you mentioned, a printed image size.
I know... that's nit-picking, however, most of what I shoot isn't printed, where DPI would be relevant. I upload them, e-mail them, view them on the 'puter, so, for me, the top resolutions are completely useless, and space wasting (unless you're viewing them on a 52" screen with 12000 lines of resolution).

I would love a digital SLR like the D200, at 10 megapixels. However, my particular needs were two-fold: size -- again, UW photography is wonderful, however, not my main focus when I'm diving, and a digital SLR, with the associated housing, is simply too large for me; and cost -- the D200 is very reasonable at $750 (give or take), however, the additional housing brings it to well over what I spent, plus 50-100%.

So, bottom line, and like so many other bits of gear in our favorite pasttime (diving), it's a matter of personal preference (and personal means).

The 8000G has worked flawlessly for me in the manner in which I employ it. If I delve further into UW photography, as you have, I will most probably move up the equipment food chain.

 

[sharky60]

I just remembered this last night, Jay has the 8000, here's a link to Christi's website and her photo galleries where she has some of his photos:

http://www.bluextseadivers.com/gall...06&PHPSESSID=7dc5fb06a749cfdc1a1dd640c2c1a729

 

[CompuDude]

I am not the photographer that some others here are, but I did borrow a dx8000 once a short while ago for a day. It had the YS-25 strobe.

Now, I'm coming from a Canon S80 in the Ikelite case. No strobe, although I just added one, but have not had time to get comfortable with it. So the strobe was new to me, but I definitely noticed there was some very annoying lag time while the strobe and internal flash recharged between shots. It also seemed like every 3 shots the camera dumped memory to the card, locking the thing up for a noticeable amount of time... especially if that third shot was the first in a new series. This was shooting at one stop below max, if memory serves. On my S80 (and ever Canon I've ever had) I shoot at the highest jpg size with the compression one step down from the max.

I took a few ok shots with the 8000, but many were garbage. I felt like I was fighting the camera the entire time, despite the presence of a few things I liked about the camera when playing with on the boat. Once I got home, the biggest issue I had was some odd grain in the images, visible only when you zoomed in or cropped severely. I had a few Christmas Tree Worm shots that would have been perfectly usable crops from my S80 that were complete trash on the 8000.

Basic shot info:
▪ Focal Length: 5.8 mm
▪ Aperture Value: F4.6
▪ F-Number: F4.7
▪ ISO Speed Ratings: 161
▪ Flash: Flash fired
▪ Metering Mode: Multi-segment
Advanced shot info:
▪ Exposure Bias Value: 0 EV
▪ Exposure Time: 1/32 sec
▪ Exposure Mode: Auto exposure
▪ Max Aperture Value: F2.4
▪ Brightness Value: 2

Basic shot info:
▪ Focal Length: 5.8 mm
▪ Aperture Value: F2.5
▪ F-Number: F2.5
▪ ISO Speed Ratings: 161
▪ Flash: Flash fired
▪ Metering Mode: Multi-segment
Advanced shot info:
▪ Exposure Bias Value: 0 EV
▪ Exposure Time: 1/32 sec
▪ Exposure Mode: Auto exposure
▪ Max Aperture Value: F2.4
▪ Brightness Value: -0.4

Basic shot info:
▪ Focal Length: 5.8 mm
▪ Aperture Value: F4.6
▪ F-Number: F4.7
▪ ISO Speed Ratings: 161
▪ Flash: Flash fired
▪ Metering Mode: Multi-segment
Advanced shot info:
▪ Exposure Bias Value: 0 EV
▪ Exposure Time: 1/250 sec
▪ Exposure Mode: Auto exposure
▪ Max Aperture Value: F2.4
▪ Brightness Value: 6.6

Again, it's entirely possible that I simply was doing something wrong with the camera. But after that experience, I know that I never want to use another Sea & Sea camera. The graininess of the images was entirely unacceptable to me, on top of everything else I observed. The camera's owner said she had noticed the grain also, but wasn't sure if there was a setting wrong, as the camera was brand new and she had only used it once before.

One shot from my S80 (all of these have of course been reduced for display, the full size shots (on my site) do not show the jaggies visible in this):

Basic shot info:
▪ Focal Length: 5.8 mm (35mm equivalent: 28mm)
▪ Aperture Value: F2.8
▪ F-Number: F2.8
▪ Shutter Speed Value: 1/59 sec
▪ Flash: Flash fired, auto, red-eye reduction
▪ Metering Mode: Multi-segment
Advanced shot info:
▪ Exposure Bias Value: 0 EV
▪ Exposure Time: 1/60 sec
▪ Exposure Mode: Auto exposure
▪ Max Aperture Value: F2.8

These shots probably aren't directly comparable, but I don't have time to search my entire collection right now, and I can assure you that the Canon shows did not suffern the same grain issues. And strobe recycle times are WAY better with my S80 and Inon D2000 strobe. And write times (to the card) are also enourmously better (barely noticeable) with my Canon.

Well, that's my 2 psi. Take it for what it's worth.

 

[alcina]

Great input here, Guys! This system might be just the ticket for some and not such a good fit for others. Everyone has done a great job of listing points pro and con with examples - has to be one of the better "is this the right camera for me" threads!