SDI Nitrox vs TDI Nitrox

[boulderjohn]

basic OW AND AOW - FIRST PADI then the others Padi probably because of the world wide extablishment and ability to find a padi instructor any where.
rescue and recovery. probably all agencies recreational and then the biggy erdi
team divng utd and those other guys
cave well iantd nacd then other tech organizations.
tech diving iantd tdi utd ect

Let's begin with the fact that probably fewer than 2% of divers go on to take tech instruction, so it is not surprising that the number of recreational certifications greatly outnumbers the number of technical certifications.

You have made your pronouncements above based on your experience in your area. That is like going to your nearest street corner, observing the cars that pass by for 5 minutes, and then making pronouncements about the percentages of different models world-wide. Let's compare your experience with my experience in the entire state of Colorado, where it is relatively easy to track the totals.

The largest number of active tech instructors in the state are PADI.
The second largest number is TDI, but one of their instructors is really not currently active for health reasons, and they will lose another who is planning to drop that affiliation at the end of the year.
NAUI has one active tech instructor, and it has no recreational instructors.
GUE has one Fundamentals instructor and no tech instructors. (The Fundamentals instructor is the NAUI tech instructor.)
UTD has no instructors in the state. It used to have one (and I was a student), but they no longer do.
IANTD has one tech instructor that I know of.
ANDI has none.

I will not project those numbers outside of the state, though. I do not have enough information to do that, and I am not so foolish is to think my local situation is necessarily representative of the rest of the world.

So what about other states, ones that have a larger total number of teach insturctors? I got my PADI technical instructor training through trimix instructor in Florida, where I had a lot of choices for instructor trainers. I just did a Google search for PADI technical training, and I got quite a few hits. It is simply absurd to say that an organization with that many technical instructors "has no interest in technical diving."

 

[NAM001]

John

you keep answering your own questions. 2% go on to tech. then what are the 98%. I will answer that . They are the ruling class. They are rec divers that go to padi for an OW or AOW card or basic nitrox and at that point end their training objectives. One ( or 2%) technical instructors does not make the organization a technical organization. I believe that if PADI had one rebreather instructor, and I said that that agency has no interest in rebreathers you would argue based on that one rebreather instructor, that it has an interest. technically you would be right but functionally you would be wrong. The largest number of tech instructors in the state IMO is again rooted in,,, padi instructors do not have to be affiliated with a shop to teach like so many other agencies require. It is the dynamics of the company that make the padi the most recognized name around. Once again I wish more agencies would adopt padi's policy on this. The number off certifications issued is result of the available instructor presence, and it defines the direction that a company goes to make a profit. that being rec diving for padi. As such all/most training is designed to serve that criteria. My opinions are not based on my locality. It is based on every where I have dove. You can look at the cert agencies on paperwork and stickers on shop windows/ Mostly it is padi on the training agency line. Not because they are the best, (not saying they are not) but because they have the most instructors available for training. Most instructors I have seen are PADI and are not affiliated with a shop and the agency that allows that to happen is PADI. So much for the basis of popularity of PADI. You mention GUE and it not having tech training. Their training base is targeted on specific groups and goals, like padi being based on rec diving. As far as the stats you provided they are for your state or area and we both accept that they do not represent all areas. If you go to deep south Texas it is nauii country, why?? the tech director is based there and they are the only game in town. You go to north Florida and it is iantd c something and other more technical agencies that teach basics for the purpose of meeting prerequisites for immediate moving on to technical aspects of diving. Why????? you can’t find open water that is not a cave dive site and it is Tom's iantds center of ops. go to any vacation spot and padi rules go to other areas and it is cmas that is the boss. So no I do not have tunnel vision in my posts. After too many years on submarines the ports I visit worldwide , overall, still have padi the one of the most prevalent agencies. heck even on one sub I had 2 active padi instructors. How does that happen..... no shop affiliation required to teach. Again do I bash padi for that. NO... it is the wisest position for a training agency to take IMO. If I were to want training in advanced nitrox, or deco which agency would immediately grab the normal persons interest .... An agency with tech in the name or padi. I have heard so many times from new students the comment . If you are going to teach me cave who do I have to see to get AOW certified to meet the prereq's for your class. So yes even tech agencies will teach the basics (after all only 2% do tech, right) and they have to fill time somewhere. I would still label them as technical trainers and not basic trainers because of their overall agency training mission/goals.

Other than that i think we are gong to have to agree to disagree. There is no gospel in diving just point of view. Clearly neither one of us can convince the other to alter our view point.

Let's begin with the fact that probably fewer than 2% of divers go on to take tech instruction, so it is not surprising that the number of recreational certifications greatly outnumbers the number of technical certifications.

You have made your pronouncements above based on your experience in your area. That is like going to your nearest street corner, observing the cars that pass by for 5 minutes, and then making pronouncements about the percentages of different models world-wide. Let's compare your experience with my experience in the entire state of Colorado, where it is relatively easy to track the totals.

The largest number of active tech instructors in the state are PADI.
The second largest number is TDI, but one of their instructors is really not currently active for health reasons, and they will lose another who is planning to drop that affiliation at the end of the year.
NAUI has one active tech instructor, and it has no recreational instructors.
GUE has one Fundamentals instructor and no tech instructors. (The Fundamentals instructor is the NAUI tech instructor.)
UTD has no instructors in the state. It used to have one (and I was a student), but they no longer do.
IANTD has one tech instructor that I know of.
ANDI has none.

I will not project those numbers outside of the state, though. I do not have enough information to do that, and I am not so foolish is to think my local situation is necessarily representative of the rest of the world.

So what about other states, ones that have a larger total number of teach insturctors? I got my PADI technical instructor training through trimix instructor in Florida, where I had a lot of choices for instructor trainers. I just did a Google search for PADI technical training, and I got quite a few hits. It is simply absurd to say that an organization with that many technical instructors "has no interest in technical diving."

 

[306dive306]

Well that pretty much covers it. I suppose I should stick with the SDI courses for now.

Knowledge is power!!!
Knowledge can translate into safety if a diver has the proper behaviour!

Don't approach scuba diving as "for now, I'll have less knowledge".

I strongly recommend you take the most comprehensive course so you know more, have more "aces in the sleeve".

 

[Peter69_56]

If it tests off, (for doubles) invert the cylinder and leave it alone for 5 min, you can roll a single for a minute or two. Re-test. If it changed, it just didn't have time to mix properly. If if didn't change, it is off.

I have my own analyzer for all the same reasons given above.

Its surprising how blends often do not initially mix correctly in the cylinder. I have had tanks that test way wrong, yet with some rolling around on the grass and swinging around, they then test perfectly. The other day I picked one tank up from my LDS after they did a Trimix blend, and it had been sitting for 2 days and tested out. After some serious shaking it tested perfectly.

I have heard people make the statement that its impossible for the gases not to mix within the cylinder after filling and that its not necessary to roll or swing the cylinders to ensure a complete mix, yet in my experience, unless you do (with partial pressure mixes only, as where the mix is a decant or directly filled from a membrane machine the blend should already be fully mixed thus not need additional manual mixing ) it will more often than not test incorrectly until properly manually mixed after the fill.

I am thinking when I make up my tank tumbler to clean my tanks, I make it so it can tumble a full tank to ensure mixing is complete. Saves swinging the damn thing about everywhere, in particular the larger deco or back gas cylinders.

 

[The Chairman]

For me this is simple: the class you take depends on your ultimate goals. If you want to do any tech diving, then TDI's NitrOx course is for you. If you are probably going to be content with recreational diving or just don't know, then SDI's computer based NitrOx course is for you.

Either way, while neither require dives, they do require you to meet with an instructor and show your proficiency with measuring, labeling tanks and possibly setting your PDC (SDI).

As for who is better: This is the TDI/SDI forum. Let's honor that and stop comparing agencies in here.

 

[Hawkwood]

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

Hey folks, this Thread is in the SDI/TDI/ERDI Forum. Keep the Posts on topic, which is "SDI Nitrox vs TDI Nitrox", not SDI/TDI vs XYZ Agency's courses. Feel free to set up a Thread in an appropriate Forum if you want to do a multi-agency comparison.

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[sheeper]

I teach the SDI Computer Nitrox to the 98%. They want nitrox for typical recreational diving here. The SDI Nitrox is somewhat light and quick. But I make sure that my students have a basic understanding of the concepts.

The 2% that want deeper knowledge or want to go tec at some point get the TDI Nitrox. That takes more time, we do more on theory and details and it is more difficult. And it costs more.

Guess which class I teach more of?

 

[fsardone]

I dove with someone once who had an absolute hissy fit because his Nitrox came out at 33.5%, and he had Nitrox tables for only 32% and 36%. He couldn't handle it.

[I gave up my tanks and took his, because mine were 32. 4.]

Sorry, I know it was an old thread but I saw it only now and I loved this quote

I believe we are dumbing down diving too much to the point that people are diving beyond their level of knowledge and undertaking more risk than they can handle.

Just my 2 bar (of EAN 49.7)

Cheers

Fabio

 

[admikar]

I dove with someone once who had an absolute hissy fit because his Nitrox came out at 33.5%, and he had Nitrox tables for only 32% and 36%. He couldn't handle it.

I just finished IANTD Basic Nitrox, so, sorry if this a stupid question, but shouldn't you just do a conversion to EAD?

 

[halocline]

But I got into the sport because I want to cave dive period.

If this is the case, I would suggest you focus on trim/buoyancy/propulsion classes with an instructor who can really help you get better at these basic dive skills. Cave diving is not particularly difficult conceptually, (although there are lots of details) but it is very demanding in terms of precise control over buoyancy and propulsion. These skills take a lot of time and practice; the sooner you start working on them, the better off you'll be in the long run.

I would also suggest you take the more technical nitrox class. If nothing else, it will help you get in the mind set for further instruction in gas calculations and deco theory.