ScupaPro Mk10+ IP creep

[Couv]

Here is my recent test...again using my cheap IP gauge.

at purge....pops back to 130psi
after 45 sec = 140
after 60 sec = 142
after 2 min = 148
after 3 min = 152
after 5 min = 158

.....

Oncor23,

Certified or not, I'm not feeling warm and fuzzy with your shops knowledge of MK10/MK10+. I suggest you take Halocline up on his generous offer to trade. You'll be getting a known good regulator from someone who is meticulous about caring/rebuilding them.

 

[oncor23]

Okay, so they replaced the piston, but not on this service? Wear in the body and/or scoring won't cause creep. It might cause a leak; most frequently someone mangles the HP o-ring journal removing the old o-ring, and the result is HP air leaking into the ambient chamber. If there's scoring (usually due to corrosion or careless techs) in the ambient chamber where the piston head o-ring sits, IP air would leak into ambient. That would result in the IP dropping a bit until the piston gets pushed off the seat, which causes a rapid re-lock up, then slow IP drop again, etc...

Yes, they replaced the piston about 2 yrs ago...not this service. It might be that was the previous service to this one. I'll have to check.

There's only one place HP air leaks into the IP chamber, that's at the piston/seat interface. It's either a bad piston or bad seat. If the tech said "MK10" not MK10+, he should know that it's an entirely different piston and a MK10 piston will definitely NOT work with the MK10+ seat. They're not that dumb, are they? He must have meant MK10+.

I'm sure the last tech I talked to was referring to my Mk10+. They do have several techs who work on the regulators...more than 2...I don't know how many.

Being SP certified means someone took a one-day course that nobody has ever failed. Not exactly 'rigorous' training....so the tech could be excellent or terrible at your store. There seem to be plenty of both at dive shops around the country!

Yeah, the guy who worked on my reg this time hadn't done any of my gear before. I don't know how new he is to working on regs, but he is the general salesmen, phone answer guy...so maybe that tells you something. I can't specify who does my gear. Maybe if I knew them better, I could.

---------- Post added ----------

couv,

As I've already told my LDS I would send it in for them to look at...I will do that. What happens if I don't like the result is totally open. At this point, I still need to have my gear serviced somewhere. That said, if they tell me the Mk10+ is DOA, and don't offer me any viable solutions to move forward...then I will be open and eager to work a deal with Halocline. Something that needs sorting out as part of the equation is where I get my gear serviced in the future. At this point, that is up in the air.

 

[halocline]

Something that needs sorting out as part of the equation is where I get my gear serviced in the future. At this point, that is up in the air.

The best thing would be to learn how to do it yourself. Next best would be to find someone who you are certain does excellent work (I'm sure there are many, it's not that difficult) and make sure that person services your reg each time.

 

[oncor23]

But the freeflow "problem' you describe may just be the first time you have gotten your 2nd stage tuned correctly. If you are going to get maximum performance, they should freeflow a little when you handle them badly. Use the adjustment knob to control it when not in your mouth, and enjoy.

Okay...talked to my LDS and here's their take on the freeflow. The regs are well tuned. What I found, again, is this: For the R190 octo, on a bungee around my neck...I believe it freeflows if the mouthpiece tilts up. Should I verify that, and if that's the case, have them increase the cracking pressure?

Balanced adjustable: Above water, hit the purge and it freeflows as it should. Release the purge and freeflow continues. I'm not holding it down for any real length of time...just push in a good amount and release. I guess that once it get's going...there's enough vacuum created that releasing the purge button won't stop it. Is this normal, for a finely tuned, easy breathing 2nd stage? Even when the adjustment knob is turned all the way in?

If you take a 2nd stage out of your mouth while underwater...do you expect it to freeflow? Not if mouth piece pointed down, yes if mouth piece pointed up? Do you have your octo set so it behaves differently?

As for the 1st stage creep, the LDS said they found a total of 20 or 20+ psi creep when left on for a long time. The creep over 45 secs was something like 6-8 psi, with an additional 1 psi in the next 15 secs, so it met Scubapro specs. My question is this...the additional creep should suggest that there is still a problem. It didn't lock up after 1 minute, but had a substantial creep afterwards. I'm still not clear on what, if anything, they did to rectify the creep. I will have to question them on this when I pick up the reg. They also said something about the IP pressure being a little high, so they adjusted that. I expect that they must know I will check for creep again when I get the regulator back! I need a list of questions to ask them when I pick it up...how much is the total IP creep now, for one.

 

[Zung]

Okay...talked to my LDS and here's their take on the freeflow. The regs are well tuned...

I don't buy that.

... For the R190 octo, on a bungee around my neck...I believe it freeflows if the mouthpiece tilts up. Should I verify that, and if that's the case, have them increase the cracking pressure? ...

IMHO, an octo shouldn't free flow in any position. Do verify that, and if it's the case, tune it yourself: all it takes is to remove the hose, and screw the orifice clockwise 30° or 1 hour. Better still: juryrig a manometer and tune it to 1.4" or there about.

The reasoning is: if I need to use the octo, the dive is over and I don't care if it breathes a bit harder. OTOH, if the dive is NOT over, I want to enjoy it to the fullest and the last thing I want to have on my mind is to tend the gear.

... Balanced adjustable: Above water, hit the purge and it freeflows as it should. Release the purge and freeflow continues. I'm not holding it down for any real length of time...just push in a good amount and release. I guess that once it get's going...there's enough vacuum created that releasing the purge button won't stop it. Is this normal, for a finely tuned, easy breathing 2nd stage? Even when the adjustment knob is turned all the way in? ...

Not if the adjustment knob is all the way in; plus, the 109 doesn't have a lot Venturi, so it shouldn't free flow as much. Detune it a bit: 1" to 1.2" is good, with the knob all the way out.

... As for the 1st stage creep, the LDS said they found a total of 20 or 20+ psi creep when left on for a long time. The creep over 45 secs was something like 6-8 psi, with an additional 1 psi in the next 15 secs, so it met Scubapro specs. My question is this...the additional creep should suggest that there is still a problem. It didn't lock up after 1 minute, but had a substantial creep afterwards. I'm still not clear on what, if anything, they did to rectify the creep. I will have to question them on this when I pick up the reg. They also said something about the IP pressure being a little high, so they adjusted that. I expect that they must know I will check for creep again when I get the regulator back! I need a list of questions to ask them when I pick it up...how much is the total IP creep now, for one.

I'm sorry you have to deal with these guys. Perhaps you may respectfully suggest they learn to read: according to SP's EB242:

... ALLOWABLE INTERMEDIATE PRESSURE SPREAD <= 12 PSI...

then:

...
0 - 45 SECONDS: DRIFT OF LESS THAN 8 PSI
45 - 60 SECONDS: DRIFT OF LESS THAN 1 PSI AND TAPERING TO 0 PSI
...

What it means is: after 60 seconds, there should be no more drift. Else you could find yourself with the full 3000 PSI of your tank!

Edit

On second thought, the EB242 is from 1995; I think it refered to the early white seats that were terrible. With the current dark grey/black seats common to the MK10+/MK20/MK25, there should be no drift at all.

I just tested my #2 son's MK20 that has about 60 dives since last service, and it's snappy like new, recovering in under 1 second and no drift.

 

[Couv]

Again, I think you've been more than fair to the LDS clowns. Get your regulator back, either have Halo service it or trade it (that's what I would do, the MK10+ has too many issues.) I'll try to attach SB #248 so you can read it to the illiterates at the shop.

 

[Zung]

And the EB 242 is here.
Charge them tuition and use it to fund SB.

 

[oncor23]

I don't buy that.

Would you buy....well tuned to breath easy...really easy...with a little free flow thrown in?

IMHO, an octo shouldn't free flow in any position. Do verify that, and if it's the case, tune it yourself: all it takes is to remove the hose, and screw the orifice clockwise 30° or 1 hour. Better still: juryrig a manometer and tune it to 1.4" or there about.

The reasoning is: if I need to use the octo, the dive is over and I don't care if it breathes a bit harder. OTOH, if the dive is NOT over, I want to enjoy it to the fullest and the last thing I want to have on my mind is to tend the gear.

Hmmmm...gee...kind of what I was thinking about the Octo. Why would I want it to free flow if the mouthpiece points up?

Not if the adjustment knob is all the way in; plus, the 109 doesn't have a lot Venturi, so it shouldn't free flow as much. Detune it a bit: 1" to 1.2" is good, with the knob all the way out.

Actually, that's what I told them...cut it back some. They had bragged about using a 2nd stage set to 0.8". Maybe mine was set to 1"...if so, I can get them to cut that back to 1.2".

I'm sorry you have to deal with these guys. Perhaps you may respectfully suggest they learn to read: according to SP's EB242:

... ALLOWABLE INTERMEDIATE PRESSURE SPREAD <= 12 PSI...

then:
...
0 - 45 SECONDS: DRIFT OF LESS THAN 8 PSI
45 - 60 SECONDS: DRIFT OF LESS THAN 1 PSI AND TAPERING TO 0 PSI
...

What it means is: after 60 seconds, there should be no more drift. Else you could find yourself with the full 3000 PSI of your tank!

Edit

On second thought, the EB242 is from 1995; I think it refered to the early white seats that were terrible. With the current dark grey/black seats common to the MK10+/MK20/MK25, there should be no drift at all.

I just tested my #2 son's MK20 that has about 60 dives since last service, and it's snappy like new, recovering in under 1 second and no drift.

:shocked2: Remember, we are dealing with a LDS here. I'll be reasonably happy if I get a lockup within 60 seconds and no more than 8 psi of creep. I'm still in doubt about what they did with my Mk 10+...they mentioned reducing the pressure...but maybe they did something else to reduce the creep, but didn't tell me? I really need to check the creep for myself to see what I come up with.

I'm getting the impression that they do not really want to discuss the details of what they do with the typical customer...or maybe just me. So...they fixed it...and since you the customer are not particularly knowledgeable about regulators, they don't see the need for going into details.

---------- Post added ----------

Again, I think you've been more than fair to the LDS clowns. Get your regulator back, either have Halo service it or trade it (that's what I would do, the MK10+ has too many issues.) I'll try to attach SB #248 so you can read it to the illiterates at the shop.

I have both of these ScubaPro bulletins...from Zung's other thread about his Mk10+ adventures. I do need to get my regulator back...and see how it performs. It may work fine...now. Once I see how it does...I'll go from there.

While we are on the topic...yeah, Halo was talking about trading for a Mk10...but would a Mk5 be a better choice?

 

[halocline]

Would you buy....well tuned to breath easy...really easy...with a little free flow thrown in?

Hmmmm...gee...kind of what I was thinking about the Octo. Why would I want it to free flow if the mouthpiece points up?

While we are on the topic...yeah, Halo was talking about trading for a Mk10...but would a Mk5 be a better choice?

The B/A has a pretty aggressive purge, mine will keep flowing on land once they start with full purge. Just stop it with your thumb over the mouthpiece, it's normal with the adjustment knob out. I never tried it with the knob all the way in. You do need to have them set to at least 1" cracking pressure to avoid problems with case fault geometry...you could mention that to the tech at the shop, but it might not be worth it.

Almost any decent 2nd stage will start flowing if it enters the water mouthpiece up. For your octo, once it's flooded, it shouldn't flow in any position, but it's very common when entering the water. I like using the adjustable regs as octos because I can set them like normal 2nd stages and use the adjuster to control free flows.

With regards to getting a MK5 vs a MK10, I can't offer you a MK5, (I only have 2 or 3, I think) but I can give you my opinion...I would prefer a 5 port MK5 with the heavy yoke and a stainless steel turret retainer (I.E. the very last generation of the MK5s) to a MK10, but those late model MK5s are harder to find in excellent condition, and there are some practical advantages to MK10s, and the dive performance is indistinguishable. One is that you can use the universal DIN/yoke retainer on the MK10, where the MK5 has a unique retainer. The turret retainer on the MK10s never had problems, but all except the latest MK5s had brass turret retainers that were easily over-torqued and weakened. MK10 parts are a little easier to find, especially pistons. To be honest, I would try to get your MK10+ fixed by someone who knows what he's doing. This ain't rocket science.

Bottom line, late MK5 or any MK10 would be fine. I use them interchangeably all the time; my doubles set up is two late model (with spec boots) MK10s packed with tribolube. Most single tank diving I do with a MK5 and converted pilot 2nd stage.

 

[oncor23]

The B/A has a pretty aggressive purge, mine will keep flowing on land once they start with full purge. Just stop it with your thumb over the mouthpiece, it's normal with the adjustment knob out. I never tried it with the knob all the way in. You do need to have them set to at least 1" cracking pressure to avoid problems with case fault geometry...you could mention that to the tech at the shop, but it might not be worth it.

Almost any decent 2nd stage will start flowing if it enters the water mouthpiece up. For your octo, once it's flooded, it shouldn't flow in any position, but it's very common when entering the water. I like using the adjustable regs as octos because I can set them like normal 2nd stages and use the adjuster to control free flows.

With regards to getting a MK5 vs a MK10, I can't offer you a MK5, (I only have 2 or 3, I think) but I can give you my opinion...I would prefer a 5 port MK5 with the heavy yoke and a stainless steel turret retainer (I.E. the very last generation of the MK5s) to a MK10, but those late model MK5s are harder to find in excellent condition, and there are some practical advantages to MK10s, and the dive performance is indistinguishable. One is that you can use the universal DIN/yoke retainer on the MK10, where the MK5 has a unique retainer. The turret retainer on the MK10s never had problems, but all except the latest MK5s had brass turret retainers that were easily over-torqued and weakened. MK10 parts are a little easier to find, especially pistons. To be honest, I would try to get your MK10+ fixed by someone who knows what he's doing. This ain't rocket science.

Bottom line, late MK5 or any MK10 would be fine. I use them interchangeably all the time; my doubles set up is two late model (with spec boots) MK10s packed with tribolube. Most single tank diving I do with a MK5 and converted pilot 2nd stage.

Thanks Halo. Yeah, I get that I shouldn't be surprised if a reg freeflows when it goes in the water mouthpiece up. Once it's under, it shouldn't freeflow on it's own just because the mouthpiece points up.

My comments about the Mk5 was not intended to strike some new bargain with you. It was really meant to question the value of a Mk10 vs Mk5. You answered it nicely. Thanks for that. As for my Mk10+, I do want to see how it performs after I retrieve it from the LDS. Hey, it worked well last year. If it works fine again...I'll give the LDS the benefit, but check it out more carefully after the next service. Or learn to service my own in the interim.