Scubapro MK17 Evo 2 Brand new with Massive IP creep

[tridacna]

@tridacna, @BoltSnap, in your experience selling brand new Scubapro regulators, did you experience a lot of poorly tuned, or any with serious IP creep out of the box? If this is a sensitive topic, please drop me a pm, I will not quote it anywhere. Just trying to calibrate my understanding.

I find it hard to believe that a reputable company like Scubapro will allow such a unit to pass quality checks and enter the reseller network, but it seems to be the case.

And I personally don't blame the store. I have 2 options: get it from the local reseller at 30+% markup or buy it online from a large volume reseller with a discount. The local reseller may or may not have checked it beforehand and may or may not honor my claim and I cannot blame them for that.

After all, the regulator is functioning, nothing broken, it breathes well... A regular user/diver without any knowledge, special tools, measuring instruments and/or (official) training will not be able to differentiate this unit from a perfectly tuned one with rock solid IP. Therefore I am left at the goodwill of the manufacturer or reseller to engage with the issue. None of the EU Customer Protection Acts will be applicable here.

This is about EU market however: one of the most (if not the most) reputable diving gear manufacturers, plenty of history, experience, own manufacturing facilities, standards to comply with (or exceed), and my sense of frustration with yet another company that is trying to boost sales with Instagram videos and not sticking with the quality of assembly process.

About 30-35% required adjustment of one kind or another. This was 2014-2020 so I can't speak to newer regs. Very few did not work out of the box; - they simply required tuning. We never charged for the service, it was part of the overall sales process. We also used to allow customers to dive them in our pool to make sure they were happy.

 

[rsingler]

Sources of IP creep in a piston:
*HP Seat
Piston Knife edge

Sources of IP creep in a diaphragm:
*HP seat
Volcano knife edge
*HP seat shaft scratch
*HP seat shaft o-ring
Balance chamber wall scratch
*Volcano o-ring
Scratched volcano bore in the reg body
Scratched o-ring sealing groove in Volcano

Only the asterisked items are in the service kit.

 

[elmo]

Sources of IP creep in a piston:
*HP Seat
Piston Knife edge

Sources of IP creep in a diaphragm:
*HP seat
Volcano knife edge
*HP seat shaft scratch
*HP seat shaft o-ring
Balance chamber wall scratch
*Volcano o-ring
Scratched volcano bore in the reg body
Scratched o-ring sealing groove in Volcano
View attachment 923494

Only the asterisked items are in the service kit.

It’s like a good old whodunnit. I wonder what the more likely culprit would be in a brand new reg. I would think damaged (or incorrect) o-ring or seat is more likely than a scratched hard part.

 

[kdlv]

@rsingler, thank you for the comment, sir! With the slow creep, followed by a much faster one for another 2-3 psi before it settles, I am guessing an O-ring issue as well with the orifice or shaft. This several psi fast creep is something I haven't witnessed before on another SP diaphragm it is very evident on a digital IP gauge and just as puzzling for me.

I promised an update from the Store and Scubapro's response to their ticket.
Store: We do not check Scubapro regulators, as they are all professionally tested and certified by manufacturer before packing.
{i understand and respect their position}

Scubapro:

There are some issues I would like to highlight:

1. The hoses used are not certified for usage with our regulators. For a reliable test, it is fundamental to use only original equipment and parts.

2. The tool used to record intermediate pressure looks like an amateur instrument on sale on Aliexpress, we saw it with other customers too. What certifications does it have? Is it reliable enough? These are important questions to be considered, before any other.

If customer thinks there are problems with the regulator and wants it to be checked, we are of course available. Nevertheless, the videos we received can not be considered for a technical valuation.

With regards to their response, I expected the default answer and received it Tick in the box, another ticket closed in the portal. Another happy customer.

Yes, the original regulator hose of course can be used and is still attached to the 1st stage, just not visible on the video, I plugged my other second stage to test the whole set to make sure LP and HP ports work well.
Yes, the inflator hose used is a Miflex hose, I have original SP hose that can be used (and of course it will show the same result)
The SPG is Scubapro as well, indeed, running a Miflex hose, but I have a rubber Scubapro spg hose I can use for the video. I only don’t have a genuine SPG protective boot to demonstrate my loyalty to the brand. After all, the rubber boot may also have impact on intermediate pressure

The argument they have about the digital IP gauge is unbeatable though. Even though I bought it from one of the scuba tools suppliers and not on AliExpress, it is impossible to argue online about calibration and certifications. Scubapro have a “certified” analog IP service tool: 28.158.000. It is in fact a tiny dial instrument and yes, it will also show a creep between 9 bar and 150+ psi on the scale.

My concern is that if I send it to them, they may not even touch it, return it and claim it’s perfectly usable witnessing the attempt to throw responsibility elsewhere. Which will mean that they would not accept any further claim based on the same arguments.

Another happy customer indeed.

 

[lexvil]

Why not check it with an analog gauge?




One would think with so few sources for creep in a piston that they wouldn’t out creep the diaphragm yet …

 

[kdlv]

I have an analog gauge in Bar, but it has a small 63mm dial diameter and the needle travel between 9 and 10 Bars is a couple of mm on the gauge, the needle would take 30sec at least to travel a couple of mm.
Last year I was thinking to equip my service stand with a 100mm 0-16 bar dry analog gauge next to the magnehelic, but the digital one has worked pretty well so far.
Not sure I understand... what do you have in mind?

 

[lexvil]

My thinking is not only may you digital is not accurate (it happens) but it may be to precise for the job, sort of a TMI for the job at hand??

 

[Nemrod]

It is kind of like this, tell them you want it replaced or you want your money back. A soft creep of a few psi that stops cleanly is not unusual on new regulators until the seat forms to the orifice but what you describe is not acceptable IMO.

 

[johndiver999]

When they indicate it might be a problem with the hose, you kinda got your answer right there.

 

[Tanks A Lot]

In all fairness to ScubaPro, they do have a point regarding the intermediate pressure gauge being used.

This type of gauge has become incredibly common over the past few years. Dive shops or tool suppliers typically charge anywhere between $25 and $75 for these gauges, yet they can often be found for just a few cents when shopping for deals on AliExpress or Alibaba. Most “Western” sources claim an accuracy of 1%, while “Eastern” sources sometimes make the same claim, or sometimes make none at all.

The stated accuracy of 1% applies to the full scale. Since these are 200 psi gauges, they are therefore allowed an error of up to 2 psi. That sounds great at first, but I know a small-scale seller who tests each of these gauges individually before shipping them out. He weeds out the really bad ones and adds a sticker on the back with the correction factor for the others. According to him, he finds at least a deviation of 1.45 psi on all of them. So while some are within specification, some are clearly not.

I’m not defending ScubaPro here: if the gauge works fine on other equipment, it’s clearly not the culprit. I assume you do not see a creep in the rest of your first stages when using the gauge. But I can certainly understand their hesitation when they see what is, essentially, a 30-cent gauge being used to measure intermediate pressure.

I write this not because I'm convinced your gauge is the culprit (quite the opposite), but because I see so many woefully inadequate gauges used by so many technicians. This gauge would fall into that category for me.