Scubapro D400

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ec12348

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I have a d400 that is one and only regulator that I have used for diving. it just went in for service and may or may not have the parts to be fixed. I have been offered a upgrade to the s600 if parts are not available for a nominal charge. To which I have no idea what it will be yet. Will I notice the difference between the two regulators? I would like suggestion from people that may have used both. Take the upgrade or hold out to see if parts can be found. I am also open to making a purchase for another brand that may be the same or better breather. Price is not the problem I just don't have the regulator experience that everyone on this board has and do not want to make a uninformed switch. It is also running a mk20 on the d400. Most diving will be in 40+ degree water and 100 feet or less.
Thanks
 
Both are excellent breathers but you may notice a little difference. It is not so much that one is better than the other, but they just feel a little different. I doubt if you will be unhappy with an S600 if that is what you decide to do.
 
The D400 has much better subjective breathing performance. Air flow is very smooth and due to the combination of the angled diaphragm and the coaxial diaphragm and exhaust valve, it has very little case geometry fault and the worst case for what little fault there is occurs in an unusual attitude (looking up at 45 degrees). In a normal swimming position it has no fault.

In a conventional reg (like the S600) there is a vertical difference between the center of the pressure on the diaphragm (the center of the diaphragm) and the highest edge (in the water column) of the exhaust valve. The orientation relative to the water column changes as you look up, look down, etc, but in a normal swimming position looking down at 30-45 degrees, most second stages have about a 1" difference between the center of the exhaust valve and the top of the exhaust valve. This means air leaks out the exhaust until the pressure is equalized in the case. This effectively moves the diaphragm inward until it contacts the lever. To prevent a freeflow, the spring in the poppet assembly has to be strong enough to resist the diaphragm and lever from opening the valve. So, that means the reg has to be tuned to not freeflow in the worst case position (looking straight down), which unfortunately means the reg is then detuned in a normal swim position.

That's where the D400 shines - there is no detuning at all in a normal swimming position and even in the worst case position the CGF is only about .5". Sadly, all that gets over shadowed by work of breathing numbers and the D400 does not get full credit for the very natural feel it has compared to some regs that get better numbers by having over sized exhaust valves and an overly positive pressure inhalation cycle.

So...WOB numbers will give the edge to the D400, but any one who has dove any other than the latest D400's (assuming it was properly tuned) and pretty much anything else will tell you the D400 breathes better.

The D400 declined over the years due to Scubapro detuning it to meet a really stupid EU freeflow requirement, due to a plastic orifice they inflicted upon later D400s and a two sided lever that was supposed to increase flow (and increase it did not need) but instead just increased the inhalation effort, and poppets that were a bit less supple and harder to tune. With the new poppets, it helps to run them through an ultrasound machine for a few minutes, but many techs don't know that and many don't know how to properly tune one. But if you have a pre-1994 D400 with the metal orifice and have it properly tuned, it's a superb reg.

Scubapro still supplies annual service kits and although hard parts are not produced, they are still pretty common unless you break something unusual on it. If you can avoid it, I'd stick with the D400 until you absolutely have to switch. Then I'd argue for the A700 as the D400 was THE top of the line second stage when you bought it and they should do a comparable replacement with their current top of the line second stage. Failing that, get the G250V as it's a bit better than the S600 and if you get an S600, make sure its the latest version with a metal air barrel - don't let them stick you with an older plastic air barreled version of the S600.

The Mk 20 morphed into the Mk 25 and there is not a lick of performance difference between them.
 
Thanks for the reponses. It looks like I will stick it out and see if my d400 can be fixed before I have to make that upgrade.
 
I have a d400 that is one and only regulator that I have used for diving. it just went in for service and may or may not have the parts to be fixed. I have been offered a upgrade to the s600 if parts are not available for a nominal charge. To which I have no idea what it will be yet. Will I notice the difference between the two regulators? I would like suggestion from people that may have used both. Take the upgrade or hold out to see if parts can be found. I am also open to making a purchase for another brand that may be the same or better breather. Price is not the problem I just don't have the regulator experience that everyone on this board has and do not want to make a uninformed switch. It is also running a mk20 on the d400. Most diving will be in 40+ degree water and 100 feet or less.
Thanks

I will disagree with awap :) and will say that you will notice quite a difference. I do when I switch from my D300 and D400 that I use on my stages to S600 or G250V that I have on my doubles.

I would not "upgrade" to S600 from D400. In worst case scenario if you have no choice but upgrade I would go with G250V instead. I find S600 is too convoluted inside and the only 2 advantages it gives (I have a pre 2011 version) is the size is smaller and the purge cover is soft so it works better on a stage bottle in silty environments when you have sand potentially locking the purge. (I have never had this happen with G250V but had with Apekses ATX)


MK20 is what my D regs are actually running on. I used MK20 down to 40F waters, and they work well.
 
It's not an upgrade at all. You'd be far better off just buying another D400 (or D350, or D300) and there are plenty around. Even better, you can probably find someone to fix your D400. I would consider sending it to DA Aquamaster, who will almost certainly have the parts you need (or be able to find them) and will expertly service it. One caveat; if you have one of the latest versions of the D400 with the plastic orifice, I'd find an older model with the metal orifice. He might be able to help you with that as well.

As far as what kind of a difference you'd notice with the S600, that's kind of hard to know as everyone's perception is different. To us nerds, there's a really big difference between the feel of a barrel poppet design and the coaxial/center balanced design. To many divers there would be little difference, or maybe more accurately, both regs work well and that's enough. I kind of wish that's how I saw things, it would simplify my life a little. At least being a regulator nerd is cheap entertainment!
 
doesnt it also depend on how much the 'nominal charge' is? If its peanuts, I'd go with the S600
 
Hi
I just couldn't ressit responding and forgive me for my English.
I love Scubapro, and I own and have tried many models.
I'm sure that you shouldn't replace the regulator, there is no problem with finding parts and it's the best (maybe only the Pilot is better)
I adjusted mine so if I only lower the jaw it let air in and I had no problems with free flows, it's very resopnsive and natural breather.
If yours didn't do like that then it's becuse it was not adjusted properly, and I think like DA Aquamaster that it's very simple , you just have to understand the logic.
I found that the new model lever is making most of the problems with adjusting, the old one is cut differently hence works much better, though not opening as much air as the new one, but it's smoother.
you have to make sure that the lever is flat (put it on glass) and pay attention to the contact area that it's smooth and aligned with both sides.
After reading a lot of comments from DA Aquamaster , not only that I'm willing to sign on what he said here but it looks like he really knows what he is talking about and if you find problem fixing it where you are I would have ship it to him.
I also agree that if you try a differnt reg, poppet style, you'll be better of with the big regs like the G250.
I didn't try the A700 but I have a BA also, and it's also very sweet, there are advantages to metal.
hope I helped
 
Another D400 fan here. I've dumped all my SP regs for reasons other than performance, but I kept my MK15/D400 from the early 1990s and just bought another early D400 to go with my MK17. If they are setup right they are good breathers and simple, just a dive pre-dive switch. Once properly serviced you can easily get 2 years out of it, possibly more.

On the other hand, for some it is just too much trouble to try to hang on to nastalgic gear, even though they are excellent performers and the upgrade to a newer model might make sense, that's understandable, I've been there. Like Golan said, I would send it to the guy with the line arrow on his toast, dive another two years with the D400 and not look back :)

If your a simple rec diver the S600 on a 25 would be great. You said down to 40 degrees so maybe a MK17. On an upgrade I would go G250V/MK17, just my 2 cents.
 

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