Scubapro A700 Vs. S600

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I think you are spot on regarding the piston versus diaphragm bias. The Mk 14 was a band-aid non Scubapro design adopted to meet an immediate demand for a diaphragm reg. The Mk 16/18 was the first real SP diaphragm design and the Mk 17/19 was an improved evolution of that design and it is amsuperb diaphragm reg - but it gets second billing to the MK 25.

I do think it is due to the decades old position of Scubapro (and their well indoctrinated dealers) that the flow through balanced piston reg rules and nothing else is worthy of top billing.

The irony here is that after developing the MK 5 to near perfection (two hp ports, 5 port swivel, stepped piston, etc) they made a retrograde movement to the MK 10 with a smaller piston head and the sealing surfaces in the reg body rather than in the swivel cap.

Significantly they went back to the larger piston head in the MK 15, 20 and 25 and made some detail improvements but to be honest a MK 25 does not really do the job any better than a late model MK 5. The MK 25 has more flow rate, but it's overkill and I'd argue the MK 5 with SPEC system was far more reliable in cold water than the TIS equipped MK 25.

But neither that more the superiority of the MK 17 in cold or silty water matters as the MK 25 has a flow rate of 300 scfm as if that matters...
 
DA Aquamater, very interesting comment about Scubapro piston vs diaphram philosophy. A very reputable SP tech in my LDS do recommend piston over diaphram. I am pretty sure he did NOT do it to get people to buy Mk25. His argument was general better reliability of piston, better ability to water intrusion and the ability to continue working after being flood. (This is my interpretation, not his words, so I could be wrong.) My local tech comminute also seems to favor piston, ie Mk20/25, Atomic ... This makes me think there is some true to this. Care to comment on this?
 
:popcorn:

I'm interested in what DA thinks about this; but I've owned and do still own and service both piston and diaphragm regs...

In a silty environment I'd give the nod, in order, to:

1. Sealed diaphragm.
2. "Unsealed" diaphragm.
3. "Sealed" piston.
4. "Unsealed" piston.

Overall reliabilty?? I have no clue. I think people assume since diaphragm regs are more "complicated" they must be less reliable.... but how much more complex are they then, say, a Mk-25 (which is more complicated than a Mk5)?? The Mk-25 actually (I'm pretty sure) has MORE internal parts than my "complicated" MR-12 and MR-22 diaphragm regs... But the Mk5 has less parts.... but has a swivel that could fail...

Again, I think DA and 50Fathom have likely hit nail on the head with the "piston vs diaphragm bias".

Best wishes.
 
I know from working on a large number of regs by various companies and of various designs, especially those used in murky water or regs poorly rinsed by traveling divers, that a sealed diaphragm has a significant advantage as the sealed ambient chamber protects more of the internal parts.

Even with an unsealed diaphragm, the internal parts are still protected by the diaphragm and no moving parts are subject to dirt, salt, corrosion etc due to exposure to water in the ambient chamber - and that chamber is generally easier to rinse than on a piston reg.

In a piston reg like the Mk 25, the piston stem, piston stem o-ring, piston head o-ring and the bearing surface in the swivel cap for at least one of the piston head o-rings is exposed to potential dirt, salt and corrosion. And it is fairly hard to rinse even on later Mk 20/25s with larger ambient pressure holes.

In terms of long term reliability, the Mk 5 and 10 could go years between servicing - if using a properly maintained SPEC system (silicone filled environmental system) and if diving only in fresh water. But in salt water and or with voids in the silicone filler, corrosion could be a real issue making annual servicing essential. The Mk 20/25 in comparison can go fairly long periods of time without service provided it is properly maintained, but the plastic replaceable bushings are now the weak point and limiting factor.

Similarly, the Mk 16 had issues with seat reliability and longevity, but that has been largely addressed with the Mk 17 which uses an entirely different seat and orifice system - one that has been retrofitted back into the Mk 16. Still, I tend to see IP creep on my MK 17s at a slightly greater rate than I saw it on my previous Mk 20s and 25s and I think the Mk 25 can probably go a longer number of dive hours between services - if all other things are equal and the reg is kept clean, silt free and salt free. The reality is however that all things are seldom equal.

As a reg tech, and owning a LOT of regs for a two technical diver family, I tend to defer my own maintence until a reg fails a pre-trip flow check, often (due to SP's painfully slow replacement of warranty parts) I find myself using my own planned annual service parts to service a customer reg and nby default defer my own service until the next parts shipment arrives. With that in mind, I can't say I have noted any higher rate of failure on customer MK 17s than an MK 25s and would conclude that if serviced at the required interval, both are 100% reliable from a design/longevity standpoint.

Perhaps more importantly, I have yet to see a Mk 17 fail in a manner other than IP creep. I can't say the same for the Mk 20/25 as I have seen failed piston stem and piston head o-rings that resulted in fairly substantial leaks. To be fair, I have seen a lot more Mk 20s and Mk 25s with more years on them, but I think the issue relates directly to the exposed nature of those parts and sealing surfaces - something that is absent in the Mk 17 or other sealed diaphragm reg.

Again, where the Mk 17 has the distinct edge is when used in murky water or when not thoroughly rinsed. Mk 25s subject to those conditions come into the shop in worse condition with more issues, greater wear and with far more required cleaning.

In the end however, if properly maintained, all of the above are more than adequately reliable.

----

I have flooded both the Mk 25 and the MK 17. I am probably more comfortable flooding a MK 25, than a Mk 17, but the Mk 17 seems to survive it ok. That said, I try to avoid flooding anything and it's generally bad form. In any case the potential to flood a reg is not an issue in the sense of an unintentional flood as both will survive.

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For deco reg use I prefer a piston reg as I still regard the diaphragm (in any diaphragm reg) as pretty much a great big piece of fuel. If you are inclined to configure your stage and deco regs in a manner where you can use them in either role, then the O2/diaphragm caution applies to your stage regs as well.

In that regard I think a flow by piston design like the Mk 2 is nearly ideal for O2 use (at least as good as it gets for scuba regs) as the moving part (piston) and dynamic o-rings (piston stem and piston head o-rings) are in the intermediate pressure areas of the reg with no HP gas downstream of the orifice. However the flow rate is not adequate at depth as a stage reg. Consequently, since I value commonality and reduced tools and parts in the save a dive kit, I use Mk 10s for deco and stage regs as they are readily available on the used market, are fairly inexpensive, have adequate performance in both roles and are fairly bullet proof.

But for my use-on-every-dive primary and back up reg, especially for sidemount diving in potentially silty conditions, I use Mk 17s. When you consider I have had them 210' deep while a couple thousand feet back in a cave with my less than perfect personal maintenance schedule, I think that speaks highly of them and of my confidence in them and in their likely failure modes.

For example, I can live with a failure in a Mk 17 when hat failure is just a little IP creep that will not even be a issue on the active reg and would be noticed only as a slight freeflow in the inactive reg - one that can also be turned off to eliminate any on-going gas loss. In contrast, a leaking o-ring on a Mk 25 will leak all the time when breathing off the reg and result in a need to feather it during the active portion of the dive to minimize gas loss - that is a major PITA in comparison.

Those are just my own thoughts and biases and your mileage may vary. But it is probably worth noting that prior to the Mk 17, I had the same basic "piston" reg bias and did not really consider a diaphragm reg for technical diving use.
 
:thumb: :thumb:

Two thumbs up for the terrific post, DA (as usual).

Thanks for taking the time to put that all down, it does fill in some "knowledge gaps" for me.

Best wishes.
 
As an experiment, I packed one of my MK5s with the tribolube grease that's recommended for packing ambient chambers. I've probably used it on about 75 dives so far and am interested to see how it looks after a couple hundred dives over a few years. I don't believe I have ever had any IP creep on a MK5 that I've rebuilt, but my intention with this one is to let it go longer between servicing than I normally would. I've also packed 2 of my MK10s (finally found those SPEC boots) for my doubles.

Even though I'm only a warm-water diver, I remember buying a MK5 that was packed with silicone and the ambient chamber was spotless, even though the reg probably had not been serviced in a decade. So I'm a believer in packing piston ambient chambers.

I have nowhere near the kind of experience that DA has with regulators (or diving for that matter) but in general I would not assume that higher parts counts equals less reliability. I do find it enjoyable to use and work on regs with very simple, elegant designs (like the MK5) but I would be in no position to say that it's lower parts count is what makes it so reliable. The MK25 has certainly proven itself, as have atomic regulators, and they have a much higher parts count.
 
So just to be sure, you guys think the A700 would be better for cold water/ overall performance? i think thats what im going to end up going with, with a MK17, because as DA says, its a much nicer reg than the MK25, even though Scubapro pushes the MK25 more
 
Hey guys, so i finally got to dive my mk25/A700 and I wasn't impressed! Maybe its too fancy for me or I don't understand how to use it to its potential. So I splash and on the way down I notice it was slowly free flowing so I turned the adjustment knob down and it stopped, okay not a big deal. But then on the way up almost literally at the surface it starts to make a weird brrrr noise. Once up on the boat I played with it some more and it constantly did it and wouldn't breath freely no matter what adjustment. I'm using my S600 as well and that reg breathed fine. What gives? Its brand new, purchased in Oct 2011... Did it sit on the shelf for ever and now needs to be serviced already? Will SP cover this for me? I dont want to take it back to where I bought it because I don't trust them servicing it! Thanks for the help...
 
Regarding the noise, it's a known issue; you can take it back and they'll change the diaphragm free of charge. Regarding the ease of breathing, do you mean your S600 breathes better? It would be interesting to have some quantitave data: rig up a manometer and measure both. There could be a issue with the seat being engraved as you said.
 
I run twin Mk25's with A700 and S555 seconds. In recreational depths they breath almost the same. We ice dive quite a bit with no issues here in Holland or with our friends in Norway.(most of them are on Mk25's with no issues)
The missus uses twin Mk25's with GV250s and again, no issues in cold.
The big secret is DO NOT BREATH THEM OUT OF THE WATER.
 

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