ScubaBoard's Policy Regarding Posts Dealing Advocating Diving in Caves without Traini

[SeaHorse81]

No one is being prevented from posting or talking freely about cave diving without proper training. They just have to go somewhere else if they want to do it and there are many, many places to do so.

Yes, it is America, and as such, I support Pete's right to make whatever law-abiding decisions for his business that he wishes. Personally, I think if somebody is going to draw a couple of lines in the sand, these are very reasonable ones.

 

[AfterDark]

I’ve never been involved with an organization where I agreed 100% with every policy they had but, as long as the org. has reasonably good reasons for those policies and the org. meets my needs, I’ve always learned to live disagreement. Free speech doesn’t mean that people have to listen or that private org. must publish what one says; only that the govt. can’t pass a law stopping you from publishing your opinion.

 

[The Chairman]

... or at least since the departure of Genesis ... and I think it's a good policy.

Genesis was the genesis of this rule and he left because of it. It's that old (2002???)

Maybe SB should have a sticky post outlining ALL the policies and subjects we're not allowed to mention, debate or criticise to avoid moderation wrath?

There are just two. I'm not sure I see a need to sticky this as they very rarely come up.

From our ToS:

• ScubaBoard Moderators may at their discretion, remove any post which advocates unsafe diving practices as defined by the major certification agencies of the scuba diving world. While ScubaBoard does not take an official position on these matters, ScubaBoard does encourage users to maintain safe diving practices. You and you alone are responsible for your diving safety.

We allow the widest latitude of discussion for any Scuba related forum I know. In fact, we think a bit of controversy is good for the sport and spices up the discussions. If people want to kill themselves by trying to learn diving or overhead diving without an instructor, then that's their choice. I'm not going to allow ScubaBoard to be a place to encourage that at all.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It's a sad sign when an internet forum forcefully dictates what people can and can't do and is incapable of being impartial. This is just another policy showing that. Why not let people think for themselves and take responsibility for their own action or let debate sort it out?

This along with paid advertising off dive operators who we have no idea of the quality and criticism of them disallowed really does have a detrimental effect on the overall availability of impartial information.

Maybe SB should have a sticky post outlining ALL the policies and subjects we're not allowed to mention, debate or criticise to avoid moderation wrath?

Nowhere do I see ScubaBoard policy dictating what you can and can't do. What I see them dictating is what you can and cannot promote on their forum ... and since it is their "house" I think it's fair that they should decide what the house rules are. It's purely your choice whether or not you want to go out and do those things.

SB does, in fact, have sticky posts outlining their policies ... they exist at the top of many forums. This one exists here because this is the cave diving forum, and this is the policy pertaining to cave diving discussions, so it's where it belongs.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[drrich2]

It's a sad sign when an internet forum forcefully dictates what people can and can't do and is incapable of being impartial. This is just another policy showing that. Why not let people think for themselves and take responsibility for their own action or let debate sort it out?

To think for yourself, you need to be informed enough to do so, both in terms of facts and perspective. Cave diving is seen as more extreme (as in extremely dangerous without proper training which is consistently put in practice) compared to other 'grey area' controversial topics (e.g. : deep air, solo diving, fairly new OW divers with just basic OW cert. diving doing guided roughly 130 foot Blue Hole dives out of Belize, etc…).

1.) Many fairly new OW divers, or even people not yet certified, come to ScubaBoard looking for guidance. Many are already struggling with info. overhead and expecting them to thoroughly research and grasp the merits of cave training & certification may be too much.

2.) It's said some caves look deceptively 'safe' - very clear water, plenty of room to swim into…but some untrained folks don't know about silt outs, the need to run lines, etc… And may not know that they need to know about these things. You don't know what you don't know.

3.) Staying down on a standard OW dive & running out of air is apt to send a diver to his buddy for an octopus, or maybe into a CESA. Violating NDLs might lead to DCS, such as getting bent. These things are bad. Screwing up in a cave, on the other hand, seems to be associated with one main bad outcome - death. And I would imagine a rather ugly one at that.

So, on a general scuba forum where ignorance/naivety and deceptively safe looking great lethality come together and newbies don't always know which point-of-view warrior to believe, and a lot of these people have families...

I think it's a good policy.

I'm not a cave diver. Thanks to what I've learned on this forum, time and again, I'm probably less likely to go poking around 'just a little ways' into one, either.

Richard.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

I think it is a good policy and I applaud it, 100%.

The people who have been posting about conducting cave dives without training are clueless about what it takes to cave dive safely. I have read several of these threads and have sent PMs to them urging them to reconsider. But I found many times the adage "You can't fix stupid" holds true.

Their posts advocating cave diving without training does not fall on deaf ears, it has the potential to influence the next guy to think the same way. I can think of two dead, untrained "cave divers" who died in a cave together because they were so arrogant that they stated on a similar forum to here that they could cave dive safely without training.

Christmas Day 2013 two others were so arrogant that they thought they needed no training for cave diving died together in a cave.

I remember doing two separate body recoveries in one day when people were so arrogant that they thought they needed no cave training and died in a cave.

If they want to dive in a cave they should seek the proper training from a qualified/certified cave instructor.

You can find good cave instructors HERE and HERE

We do have a responsibility, at least some of us do to protect people from themselves in some certain situations, such as this one.

 

[kwinter]

I applaud the message as well, although I would probably add solo diving to the list because it carries similar risks for the untrained (not necessarily uncertified). But the question I have is what constitutes a violation of the policy? I became interested in cave diving many years ago after a "safe" guided dive in the Dominican Republic. At the time, I had no idea about the risks of cave diving. I also had no idea that the guided dive itself was quite risky, even after making a wrong turn and being separated from my group for a bit. But that experience was the impetus for my cave training.

There are plenty of posts about how dangerous those guided cenote dives are for OW divers on other forums. Are posts about people's recent experiences going to be deleted now? "Hey, I just got back from Mexico and did a great dive in Dos Ojos. Caves are really beautiful to dive in." Did that cross the line yet? If it also said, "I think I'm going to find some caves to explore here," would that part be deleted? Or the whole post? Or should it allow people to say "I'm glad you got to experience the beauty and serenity of cavern diving. There is a lot more of that available once you get the proper training."

SB is a private enterprise. Pete et al have the right to set limits and to censor as they see fit. But it is a slippery slope, especially when multiple moderators are involved and draw that line in the sand in different places.

Just my useless thoughts on the subject.

Ken

 

[The Chairman]

First of all, ScubaBoard moderation is more reactionary than peremptory. The mods and I respond to reported posts and we rarely go looking for trouble. That means, you the user controls what is acceptable and what is not, obviously within limits.

Secondly, telling us about your dive is what SB is all about. I can't think of many posts that would fall outside of the ToS that merely share your experience, good or bad. Of course, you could turn any dive report into an agenda driven rant advocating just about anything. All assurances are off in that case.

The problem lies in the promotion of learning to dive or learning to dive in an overhead environment without an instructor. If you suggest that there is no need for an instructor to learn how to navigate an overhead environment, your post will probably be deleted. We're not going to allow it.

 

[Wookie]

Seems to me that the line is pretty clearly drawn in the sand. If you advocate learning to dive without going to a certified instructor, or learning to dive in a cave without going to a certified cave instructor, your thread will be deleted. Other types of diving may be discussed even if you don't hold a card for the dive you are doing. We can also discuss the merits and pitfalls of going to a crappy certified instructor.

It also helps keep the board clean. Those threads always turn into $hitshows anyway, leading to hard feelings and calling in the BanHammer.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

We can also discuss the merits and pitfalls of going to a crappy certified instructor.

Right on Wookie...and for cave instructors there are MANY crappy ones....weekend wonders....