Scuba Extremists

[boulderjohn]

Personally, I enjoy the rigorous application of logic involved in debate/argument. There's an almost mathematical purity to it when all sides are willing (and able) to make their case, point/counterpoint, etc. To a certain extent you need to be "an extremist" to be good at debating. Where the wheels typically come off in a debate is when someone goes ad hominem or ad lapidum, or a handful of other logical fallacies that become the equivalent of "Oh yeah? Well I'm rubber, you're glue..."

A number of years ago, I was debating a political issue with someone, and I could see how to demonstrate the clear fallacy of his position using the Socratic method. I started down that path, leading him step by step thorugh questions to the inveitable point where he would have to admit he was wrong. But I never got there. Every time I tried to make my next point he would cut me off. I couldn't get my next point in. When I complained about it, he eventually said, in almost these words, "I saw where you were going, and I saw that if you got there you would win, so I kept cutting you off so you coouldn't make the point. That's how I win arguments!"

A person who will cling to a belief he has come to realize is wrong and then use disruptive tactics to keep you from proving it is an extremist.

 

[RJP]

A person who will cling to a belief he has come to realize is wrong and then use disruptive tactics to keep you from proving it is an extremist.

Says you!

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

"Arguing on the internet is like wrestling with pigs. You just get all muddy and the pigs love it."

15-16 years ago I remember the DIR wars and some of the flame fests that went on, especially on a Southern California board that was around at the time. That's actually what turned me off to DIR so bad that I thought there would be no way be I would ever be a part of something that vile. Unfortunately some of the feelings still remain and I can't fully shake it. Do you ever think the Jews will get over the Holocaust and the Nazis?
Some of those wars were so toxic many people I met up with later said they were so upset that they either had to quit posting on the board or quit diving if that's where diving was going. I remember some of the A holes that would just unmercifully blast some really friendly people that were otherwise minding their own business. They couldn't even post a simple report or ask a question without some sort of crap. I think the combo of alcohol and posting were involved to some degree....yeah, that was quite a Jihad. Then finally they got thrown off and banned. They started their own board so they could say what they wanted and the board fizzled out shortly after.
The funny thing is, most of those clowns that were involved don't even dive anymore. I have a good friend in LA that I communicate with often who was actually a part of the DIR movement in Socal at the time, but he never got involved in any of the shenanigans. He still dives but has long since abandoned holistic DIR and just solo dives and hunts pretty much minimalist style. I don't think he even uses a long hose anymore. All the people that he got fundified, indoctrinated, stamped, approved, tech passed, whatever, with are all gone from the scene. I think it's interesting how extremism can burn a person out. Like a very hot fire will burn up all it's fuel very quickly then go out.
It's a shame it was presented that way, it didn't have to be like that. There would actually be a very good chance I would have embraced the whole concept, but I didn't like the salesmen, and if you don't like the salesman you're probably not going to buy the product. They should have had a little better control over their wayfarers, unless of course they were all like that back then?
I know it has completely changed since that time but for me it's too late, I don't care about it anymore. I found my own thing and I just love it.

 

[shoredivr]

Uh-oh, Godwin. Thread's over.

 

[drrich2]

A personal 'favorite' on the extremism angle. Quite some time back the topic came up in relation to perceived 'lax' OW training standards that OW courses should be taught to prepare people to dive in local conditions, and instructors should be able to fail people who meet all the course requirements yet the instructor believes 'aren't ready.'

Which is not an unreasonable position. A key supporter of the idea, IIRC, had very extensive scuba-related experience and knowledge, lived and taught in an area with demanding local conditions, and I believe had personal knowledge of inadequately trained divers trying local conditions & being found wanting.

Nothing unreasonable there, either. But the strength of the commitment, and the extent of the desire to generalize broadly (i.e.: it ought to be done this way widely), led to some extended, multi-page discussion. After all, not everyone who trains in an area dives locally. People who want to can probably get more training. Why can someone who lives in Bonaire earn an OW cert. easier than someone who lives near coastal California, if the latter wants to take the same kind of course? Throw in some education about local conditions, great. Train in them if that's your thing, cool. But when it seems like you're pushing for this to be the community standard across the board? Some of us saw this as going too far.

I think some progress was made in those old discussions, maybe on both sides and sheer tedious repetitious debate drilled points home both ways. Particularly when people remained respectful and asserted their views rationally without being deliberately antagonistic, and being willing to acknowledge points made by the other side, which helps people let down their defenses and listen instead of exerting all their force on defending a position.

At least that's how I remember it.

Richard.

 

[drbill]

Personally, I'm going to venture a guess that SCUBA extremists are those who don't actually dive often. After all, a person who actually dives a lot must get the same calming effect I do underwater and not devolve into someone on the edge of control. But then what do I know about psychology... I'm a marine biologist.

 

[g2]

But then what do I know about psychology... I'm a marine biologist.

Maybe you've hit on a whole new field of study: Marine Psychologist.

As divers, we're addicted to narcotic effects of nitrogen, the Zen of the mammalian diving reflex, and the mental compulsion to return to the sea.
:zen:

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

15-16 years ago I remember the DIR wars and some of the flame fests that went on, especially on a Southern California board that was around at the time. That's actually what turned me off to DIR so bad that I thought there would be no way be I would ever be a part of something that vile. Unfortunately some of the feelings still remain and I can't fully shake it. Do you ever think the Jews will get over the Holocaust and the Nazis?
Some of those wars were so toxic many people I met up with later said they were so upset that they either had to quit posting on the board or quit diving if that's where diving was going. I remember some of the A holes that would just unmercifully blast some really friendly people that were otherwise minding their own business. They couldn't even post a simple report or ask a question without some sort of crap. I think the combo of alcohol and posting were involved to some degree....yeah, that was quite a Jihad. Then finally they got thrown off and banned. They started their own board so they could say what they wanted and the board fizzled out shortly after.
The funny thing is, most of those clowns that were involved don't even dive anymore. I have a good friend in LA that I communicate with often who was actually a part of the DIR movement in Socal at the time, but he never got involved in any of the shenanigans. He still dives but has long since abandoned holistic DIR and just solo dives and hunts pretty much minimalist style. I don't think he even uses a long hose anymore. All the people that he got fundified, indoctrinated, stamped, approved, tech passed, whatever, with are all gone from the scene. I think it's interesting how extremism can burn a person out. Like a very hot fire will burn up all it's fuel very quickly then go out.
It's a shame it was presented that way, it didn't have to be like that. There would actually be a very good chance I would have embraced the whole concept, but I didn't like the salesmen, and if you don't like the salesman you're probably not going to buy the product. They should have had a little better control over their wayfarers, unless of course they were all like that back then?
I know it has completely changed since that time but for me it's too late, I don't care about it anymore. I found my own thing and I just love it.

Had similar experiences with the DIR crowd up here in the 2001-2003 timeframe. There was a gang of young Fundies grads who used to hang out at the local dive site and snicker at all the OW students walking into the water in their split fins and snorkels. We used to refer to them as "The Posse". They were loud, obnoxious, and quite full of themselves. And they gave the whole DIR thing a bad odor. They were also prominent on our local diving forums, and in one particular case were directly the cause of a board losing so much popularity that it ultimately shut down. Fortunately those folks have since either grown up or quit diving, and our current DIR community is quite friendly and welcoming. I think a lot of that boils down to leadership. Back then a lot of the message was on how that approach to diving was for those who wanted to be "the best" ... and it attracted people who were looking for bragging rights. Nowadays I never hear that message ... the emphasis is more on application, responsibility, and having fun. And the people who made the bad impressions are off being "the best" at other things, having checked scuba diving off their list.

Times have definitely changed for the better ... and quite a lot of the local DIR community are now people I consider friends ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Bob DBF]

Maybe you've hit on a whole new field of study: Marine Psychologist.

Considering the Jarheads I know, it would be an extremely small field of study.


Bob
--------------------------------
Heading for cover.

 

[boulderjohn]

They were loud, obnoxious, and quite full of themselves. And they gave the whole DIR thing a bad odor. ... I think a lot of that boils down to leadership. Back then a lot of the message was on how that approach to diving was for those who wanted to be "the best" ... and it attracted people who were looking for bragging rights.

That leadership also provided their role models for interaction with the rest of the diving world. They were simply imitating their heroes. Remember, too, that there was also a conscious mission in the DIR community then to spread the word about the superiority of their gear and methodology. DIR divers were specificially told when diving with non-DIR divers to to take advantage of that opportunity to show them the error of their ways. That directive can still be found posted on some DIR web sites. It did say to do that in a friendly manner, but the people telling them to do it in a friendly manner set a very different example.