Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

[Cave Diver]

How much time passed between the last picture posted & the final decent?

What depth was the body of the victim found? How close was it to where the final decent was made? Was it closer to the exit point than where the group made their final decent?

Is there any chance of viewing the pictures Quero took? Did she take any pictures after the final decent ( may not be possible to determine )?

How many dives had she made on this specific site? What were the bottom times of these dives?

Stand by for a few minutes and I'll get responses to these questions.

Quero was last seen at approx 80 minutes into the dive at a depth of ~ 2.5 meters. She had moved shallower (closer to shore?) than where they ascended. Distance from the shore when they surfaced for bearings was ~50-60m

Approximately 3 minutes after that, buddies surfaced in ~1.5 meters of water. There was no sign of Quero and a search commenced.

Viz during the dive was ~15m. Decreased near the shore to ~5m

No info regarding her camera/pics or the other questions at this time.

 

[Denis Sydney]

No info regarding her camera/pics or the other questions at this time.

Police have the camera including memory card.

 

[je76]

@ Scubapink, A buddy could have saved her, so could have a pony bottle but she didn't have either.

I think it is worth mentioning that any dive can turn into a solo dive at any time for any number or reasons regardless of how zealous one is about maintaining the buddy system. A good example of this would be low visibility diving where I live where maintaining team contact can be extremely difficult at times. Sometimes it is so difficult in and of itself the buddy system becomes dangerous.

Dive enough you will get separated. Nothing happens until it happens and then the question is how prepared is one for that event.

Every diver should be prepared to finish a dive solo (aborted or not) for any reason. Quero I am sure was more than adequately capable of finishing a dive in <10' of water. Some other factor is the cause of the error chain that lead to her death. That error chain could have started before she even got off the boat. Based on the limited facts you will get a number of opinions. Mine is that this sounds like an OOA combined with a weight to lift ratio and failure to ditch weight.

 

[Cave Diver]

@ Scubapink, A buddy could have saved her, so could have a pony bottle but she didn't have either.

Just to be clear, she did have buddies, but she chose not to stay with them. There is a distinction. It is also my understanding that this is not an isolated event, and that Quero exhibited this behavior on dives with other SB members.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Thinking divers survive.

This reminds me of a line from an Anthony Hopkins movie that works rather well for diving.

Most people lost in the wild, they die of shame. 'What did I do wrong? How could I have gotten myself into this?' And so they sit there and they... die. Because they didn't do the one thing that would save their lives. Thinking.

For divers, the fatal problem is a failure to assess and respond to their situation in a detached, rational manner and instead reacting on instinct/panic. Some of these reactions are wholly or partly involuntary, like choking on some water when an empty tank suddenly delivers no air, while others are the result reacting without stopping to think. Whether a diver panics and starts a singleminded struggle for the surface, or, applies the mental detachedness and discipline to control their physical reactions and respond to the situation effectively with whatever minutes or seconds of consciousness remain will often determine whether they live or die.

But responding with detachment and logic when faced with your every physical instinct and sensation screaming at you OH THIS IS BAD JUST DO SOMETHING NOW! is much easier said than done, especially when the situation comes upon you without apparent warning. Simulating that kind of stimulus is easy enough but also inherently dangerous, and most people have no idea what their true comfort levels and ability to manage fear responses are.

Interestingly enough, I don't recall this issue really being presented in my buddy system focused classes: your buddy was supposed to be the detached mind/controlled body that was there to help you out. However, I think it's fair to say that panic/failure to think under sudden, unexpected pressure often affects both the victim and their buddy. In solo training, there seems to be a much more serious focus on panic and the need to understand it so as to better control it.

 

[raftingtigger]

Is there any chance of viewing the pictures Quero took? Did she take any pictures after the final decent ( may not be possible to determine )?

Most cameras encode a time stamp in the EXIF data. As long as her camera and dive computer (or computer used by a buddy) are close to synced then it would be possible to tell. Note: EXIF might be the wrong term, the photographers in the group should know what I mean however.

 

[tracydr]

I remember being surprised at how difficult it was to doff and don my gear on the surface and under water during my drysuit class. I wonder ( doubt) if Marcia had practiced this with her new drysuit and current BC. She might have been very unpleasantly surprised in her OOA emergency to find out it was much harder than she anticipated. Between this and apparently difficult to ditch weights, that's all it might have taken to be too much.
Folks,if you don't take a drysuit class, at least practice this on the surface and under water. Mine gets caught on my valve and took me awhile to figure out a way around it.

 

[Peter69_56]

That she was a member of SB and respected by and helped moderators, owned her own dive shop in Thailand, etc is a reason to not speculate and discuss this tragedy is offensive to me. Every single incident discussed on this forum is no different from hers. If you have a personal emotional connection to her and do not wish to participate than you should no do so but to suggest that anyone else refrain from the same because of who she was, is offensive to anyone else disucssed in this forum that someone else knew personally, and respected, etc. I say it is because of those factors that it is all the more important to discuss it.

From what I have read here, it seems it boils down to the buddy system. We are all taught to dive with a buddy. It is the most important rule, other than do not hold your breath, about diving. I would be willing to bet that no one begins diving solo. It is something that you progress into for various reasons. However, the simple fact remains, having that other person during an episode 10 ft, 20 ft, 30 ft, to 150 ft and beyond under the surface would almost certainly increase your odds of survival at minimal 50percent. If this woman had all the problems with her equipment that some are suggesting, and all the factors came into play and she found herself at the bottom unable to rise and OOA, had someone else been there, at this depth, there are so many things that could have been done to save her life. It seems they found her after she died. Absolutely no blame to the buddy from the sound of things on this forum. The buddy system- or the idea that it does not apply to you, ULTIMATELY killed this woman. And if you are a solo diver, you have this incident to reflect upon the next time you go under on your own because you absolutely cannot account for every single thing that could happen and if you are rendered unconscious you cannot help yourself. Having a buddy can. It is not a guarantee, but diving is designed to have this back-up system in place. If you choose to break this rule, you must absolutely understand the risk. I believe that is the lesson learned here. One of the most very basic fundamentals of diving that TOO MANY people choose to ignore. This is not an urban legend. It happens and it CAN HAPPEN TO YOU.

I understand your sentiments and I too thought I may have to write a post similar to yours when this incident first occurred. It started to show signs of being very protective because Quero was one of our own which suggested special rights here. However to give everyone credit here and given the pain people clearly feel, this has generally not been the case.

From our point of view being people who did not personally know her, we too have an obligation to give people room to grieve and hurt as well. Its a fine line between doing one or the other. Going too far in either direction can be offensive to those who knew her, or those who didn't who feel she may be treated as special.

I don't think either case has happened here. She deserves total respect as a person (as all people should be if they pass away) but the details discussed in a caring and understanding manner to understand and prevent another death (which is always the objective of this forum).

For me;

I did not know her in any form or manner but I am deeply saddened regardless, and feel for peoples pain here.

A need to know, I am a diver and want to know what happened, part from an inner need to understand, and part from wanting to ensure this doesn't happen again to me or anyone else. To deny this form of examination is paramount to aiding another death, all be it indirectly.

I think what scubapink has noticed is the hurt people are feeling when we examine the incident. We are all raking through Quero's actions with a fine tooth comb. That in itself causes emotional hurt, but is a necessary process to find out what happened for a clearer understanding. This is very normal and understandable feeling for those close to her, and we as "outsiders" also need to give some latitude for their feelings as well. I would be the first to bring people to account if I thought Moderators or people who were close to Quero were being unreasonably protective of her in comparison to other incidents. Singling her out so to speak. The fact that this post is so long already in such a short time shows peoples pain and hurt. It also in the main shows that this forum is prepared to do the hard things for a better result for all in the industry.

 

[buddhasummer]

I understand your sentiments and I too thought I may have to write a post similar to yours when this incident first occurred. It started to show signs of being very protective because Quero was one of our own which suggested special rights here. However to give everyone credit here and given the pain people clearly feel, this has generally not been the case.

From our point of view being people who did not personally know her, we too have an obligation to give people room to grieve and hurt as well. Its a fine line between doing one or the other. Going too far in either direction can be offensive to those who knew her, or those who didn't who feel she may be treated as special.

I don't think either case has happened here. She deserves total respect as a person (as all people should be if they pass away) but the details discussed in a caring and understanding manner to understand and prevent another death (which is always the objective of this forum).

For me;

I did not know her in any form or manner but I am deeply saddened regardless, and feel for peoples pain here.

A need to know, I am a diver and want to know what happened, part from an inner need to understand, and part from wanting to ensure this doesn't happen again to me or anyone else. To deny this form of examination is paramount to aiding another death, all be it indirectly.

I think what scubapink has noticed is the hurt people are feeling when we examine the incident. We are all raking through Quero's actions with a fine tooth comb. That in itself causes emotional hurt, but is a necessary process to find out what happened for a clearer understanding. This is very normal and understandable feeling for those close to her, and we as "outsiders" also need to give some latitude for their feelings as well. I would be the first to bring people to account if I thought Moderators or people who were close to Quero were being unreasonably protective of her in comparison to other incidents. Singling her out so to speak. The fact that this post is so long already in such a short time shows peoples pain and hurt. It also in the main shows that this forum is prepared to do the hard things for a better result for all in the industry.

nice...well said.

 

[Peter69_56]

"A buddy at her fin" was just an expression. I mean being a buddy in the context of actually being a buddy- not sharing the same ocean. A person is usually the same under water as they are above it. Some people are attentive, others are not. Some people take risks, others do not. In diving, there are certain buddy protocols we were all taught. They are put in place for the safety of both divers. To my knowledge there is no number of logged dive requirements to then be able to take a course of solo diving. It is not recommended and in fact it is expressly forbidden. It goes against the rules. If you are in a buddy team and you have the expectation that your buddy, after discussion, is going to be a buddy in the sense of how we were taught, only to find out under water they are not, then you should bring it up and work to resolve it to both parties satisfactions and if it isn't resolved you should look for another buddy. At this point, some people choose to go it on their own. They do break the rules. They feel confident in their skills and take additional precautions to minimize the risk of solo diving. However, it is a risk and it goes against the rules. Rules that were written to best ensure a safe dive. You can have a pony. It won't do you any good if you find yourself blacking out for some unforseen medical anomaly. In that instance, you cannot aid yourself and no amount of self-reliance will save you because you are no longer conscious. However, if you had a buddy, who was doing as they were supposed to be doing, and they noticed your distress, they could make sure a reg stays in your mouth, get you to the surface and call for help as quickly as possible. Without a buddy in this scenario, you are sinking and breathing water. (most likely) Diving alone means there are some circumstances you could find yourself in for which you will not be able to survive. period. It does not mean you absolutely will survive with a buddy, but the chances are greatly increased if there is another person with you. No amount of experience or training can get you out of certain predicaments and that is all I am trying to say about this particular incident. I am aware that she obviously had other things going on. That is the point. All we an do is speculate as there was no one there to witness and share what happened. However, the reason I say not staying with the group was the ultimate cause of her death in this instance is.....if she had stayed with the group and she had her buddy and they were experienced divers in 10feet of water, odds are they would have reacted to whatever her issue(s) was and saved her life. I think solo divers "know" that but they do not really "believe" it. Each time you do it you become more confident doing it. Then, there is that one time.....that one or many unforseen things happen, and you realize, maybe too late, it would have been a really good idea to have another person looking into your face mask.

I do understand where you are coming from here. We should watch and understand "Normalization Of Deviance Part 1-4" It really does apply to the situations Scuba Pink is relating to.

I cant find the original video from Utube but have a copy of it if anyone wants to watch it. Its about deviating from whats considered normal, and then accepting the "new" normal. And then deviating again from this "new" normal, etc etc. We can all see where this leads to. Apply also the philosophy "You don't know what you don't know" and this is a clear recipe for disaster.

---------- Post added October 17th, 2013 at 03:19 PM ----------

Yes,it is my small estimate. I would say I've only seen a few hundred,based on my travels. And, I'm sure those,like you,who go on and get training from other agencies,end up adopting other habits as well. But, when I watch classes at our local pool and lake, I can say without fail,that the classes are led and that the buddies are learning to go in file,rather than shoulder to shoulder. Actually,many of those classes are SDI, so I guess I can't say its all PADI's fault.
This is clearly just my observation and Colorado might do things very differently. I learned in Texas,WA,CA,and Arizona and have dived in a few parts of the world. Just my impression. Sorry if that upsets you.
I'm thinking of two deaths off the top of my head,during OW classes. One was a quarry back east and another was a quarry in Canada,I believe. Both where the students were in single file tours with the instructor out front and no DM to follow in the rear. In both cases, the students were lagging behind their buddies, each buddy in single file as well from the way I understood.

With all my DM training and being involved with students thereafter, it has always been Instructor up front with me at back, "Always". Perhaps its just the instructors or the dive shop, but they have to date when I have been there always run the classes this way. My job is tail end Charlie, suck up all the silt, kicks etc and watch for the stray or the cork or diver in trouble.