Scuba diver dies after being found floating at Kurnell, NSW, Australia

[down4fun]

Do you think that Marcia was so used to being in the lead and having a group follow her that she had a hard time when it came time for her to be an equal team mate, maybe even follow those who knew the area? I'm not making excuses. Just trying to understand the complicated dynamics that seemed to be going on here...

It is not unusual for photographers to be "same ocean" type buddies. Easily distracted by the next shot or opportunity.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I understand that the general consensus is that she was a good diver. I also understand that she was having a lot of trouble with her dry suit.


In the mid 70's I was a young teenager and would absolutely freeze when diving 40 degree water in NJ. So I saved all my dishwashing money and bought a unisuit (neoprene dry suit). I was VERY careful with it. I read the entire manual (5-6 pages) a few times, the guy in the shop who sold it, told me to not let the boots fill with air and off I went to a quarry to test it out. I probably was solo, but I don't know.

I was thin and needed 40 lbs of lead. This was before power inflators were common and I had a horse collar BC, but this could not be used with the suit, so I had no BC. I thought it incredibly easy to just press a button and have air added, much easier than blowing up a BC orally. I was nervous with 40 lbs of lead hanging on a belt, but I found it easy to dive with. No lessons, no troubles, no issues other than the amount of lead precluded me from shore diving in big seas. Soon I was diving it solo in the ocean.

So, I am at a loss to understand how an extremely experienced diver would have continuing trouble with a dry suit. Maybe it is management of air in the BC AND the suit that is hard- something I didn't have to contend with? I never used a dry suit with a BC. Why does it take days to figure out?

As for the accident, people have been somewhat ambiguous about how deep it was when they descended, how far from shore it was (in feet) etc. I for one, would think nothing of a diver descending with 750 psi to the bottom in 12 feet and attempting to swim in 150 yards.

I tried to read the thread, but important basic facts are missing.

depth and distance from shore? (rather than shallow and close)
What type of weight system was she using?
Did she have a BP/W and a crotch strap over a weightbelt that would complicate ditching lead (as compared to a typical recreational BC)?

Why would an extremely experienced diver (repeatedly over the course of a few day) use a BC that would not have enough lift to hold them at the surface-this seems harder to explain than a failure to ditch lead in an emergency.

 

[tkdgodess]

I had 14 dives to my name when i bought drysuit and like dd read the instructions and heeded the warning to not have a feet first ascent. Today I had 2 experienced tropical dives transition to a drysuit no issues today, after a 5 year break not diving at all. Drysuit, its not that complicated. Something else happened.

 

[lionfish-eater]

Many good points being made and possibilities brought up. Question: Where was her buddy?

Now I'm as or more guilty than anyone of not being a good buddy in that I drift off and do my own thing. That said I've had buddies that just will not let me do that. Every time I think "check on X" there he'd be right behind, above and to my right, every time! It was almost annoying. A much better buddy than I. Darn shame she didn't have a buddy like that.

He wasn't above and to the right of you, he was staying above and to the right of his emergency air supply, that you happened to be carrying around

 

[Diver0001]

Do you think that Marcia was so used to being in the lead and having a group follow her that she had a hard time when it came time for her to be an equal team mate, maybe even follow those who knew the area? I'm not making excuses. Just trying to understand the complicated dynamics that seemed to be going on here...

From what I've been hearing I think one of the root causes of the buddy separation had to do with diving habits. I don't know if that's the same as not functioning well when having to follow. I've been wondering myself if the fact that she was an avid photographer had skewed her view on the buddy system. It sounds like she had a habit of drifting away from her buddies. Question is why someone would develop such a habit.

R..

 

[tracydr]

How very odd. :huh:

Does anyone know what type weight belt this is?

I've seen those too, in the PAC NW, I think called weight harnesses. Great for guys with large stomachs and no hips.
Doubler-if you move to a DIR setup there are quite a few options for weight that don't entail weight harnesses. There are several dumpable pocket systems that fit on your harness waist band. Plus, you should have some of the weight as part of your backplate and probably steel tank. This leaves more like 8-10 pounds on the waist instead of 20-30.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Good point, sir, and entirely relevant because most divers do not practice ditching weight after initial training. The lack of practicing this skill has left diver after diver on the bottom. So please, practice all the skills, including mask removal and replace along with the weight belt ditching.

This is a woman who practiced this skill probably weekly. Not ditching the weight belt is extremely puzzling, and why I am not buying into complacency. Yet.

... if reports of her rig not being floatable are accurate, chances are she was using a weight integrated BCD rather than a weight belt ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[lamont]

Why would an extremely experienced diver (repeatedly over the course of a few day) use a BC that would not have enough lift to hold them at the surface-this seems harder to explain than a failure to ditch lead in an emergency.

This is really the bigger point. Here in the PNW with divers who are diving dry with 20-25-ish pounds of lead (usually spread around belt, SS backplate, steel tank, weighted STA) we typically recommend 30-40# wings. I typically recommend 40# wings, since divers *need* 20-ish pounds of lead to sink their undies and often start off 10# overweighted on top of that. 40# means you can screw up a lot and still never wind up in a situation where you couldn't establish some positive bouyancy.

I'm not sure exactly what her weight distribution was like, if she had a travel backplate then all her weight was in the steel tank and the 20-something pounds of lead she had, then it doesn't sound completely unreasonable, but I would need 20# of lead with that config with XM450 and I'm a 200# male. If she had lighter UG (I didn't recognize the brand mentioned earlier) then she could have easily been >10# overweighted.

And while a drysuit is redundant inflation, it is only redundant if you have redundant inflation gas (argon bottle or doubles -- or both). Running OOA means the drysuit squeeze is now trying to drown you on top of everything else going wrong.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

How very odd. :huh:

Does anyone know what type weight belt this is?

It's called a "weight & trim" system. The most popular model being the one by DUI, but there are other manufacturers. There's nothing odd about it ... the weights are perfectly ditchable ... as easily as in an integrated BCD, and much easier than a traditional weightbelt ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added October 12th, 2013 at 07:03 PM ----------

They hang from the shoulders like suspenders, but you can ditch weight like any other quick release system.

... nobody wears one, or needs one, in that getup ... that's a really misleading ad ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added October 12th, 2013 at 07:06 PM ----------

Do you think that Marcia was so used to being in the lead and having a group follow her that she had a hard time when it came time for her to be an equal team mate, maybe even follow those who knew the area? I'm not making excuses. Just trying to understand the complicated dynamics that seemed to be going on here...

The picture that's emerging for me ... as difficult as it is for me to accept in this case ... is a diver who made assumptions that what she was familiar with would apply in an environment she was unfamiliar with. It's one of the potential "gotchya's" of experience ... sometimes it just isn't practical when you immerse yourself in a different environment.

Not complacency ... more like a misapplication of context, and assuming that you know what you don't know ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added October 12th, 2013 at 07:08 PM ----------

It is not unusual for photographers to be "same ocean" type buddies. Easily distracted by the next shot or opportunity.

It's why a lot of us prefer solo diving. But if you're going to go solo, then plan and prepare to dive that way ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

---------- Post added October 12th, 2013 at 07:17 PM ----------

From what I've been hearing I think one of the root causes of the buddy separation had to do with diving habits. I don't know if that's the same as not functioning well when having to follow. I've been wondering myself if the fact that she was an avid photographer had skewed her view on the buddy system. It sounds like she had a habit of drifting away from her buddies. Question is why someone would develop such a habit.

R..

A photographer doesn't have to be a bad dive buddy ... it's a choice, based on your priorities. I dive with many photographers who are excellent dive buddies, and when diving with a buddy I strive to be one myself. It requires you train yourself to look around before and after the shot to see where your buddy is, and choose to dive with a buddy who is also committed to the same behavior. Positioning becomes important. Communication becomes important ... particularly prior to setting up a shot. Commitment to your buddy, learning to turn your head from side to side to see, rather than assume, what's going on around you ... frequent eye contact and communication. It's not rocket surgery ... it's not even particularly difficult once you turn the skills into a habit. It's a simple matter of choosing to dive that way and adopting the behavior that achieves your commitment to being a dive buddy as well as a photographer.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[drrich2]

I've been wondering myself if the fact that she was an avid photographer had skewed her view on the buddy system. It sounds like she had a habit of drifting away from her buddies. Question is why someone would develop such a habit.

From what I've seen and read on the forum, I believe divers' views of the buddy system are widely divergent.

One of the philosophies put forth in solo diver training is that if you are not diving with a capable/competent, attentive buddy, you are, for practical purposes, diving solo. I disagree in the literal sense, but consider there to be some truth in this. And an example given is an instructor working with students, whom he supposedly can't rely on in an emergency (that actually depends on the student, training, emergency in question and conditions).

My point is, she ran a dive trip operation in Thailand. I'm guessing she acted as a dive guide at times for tourist dive groups? If so, then she might've grown accustomed to a self-reliant diving mentality, and even supervising a group of divers of varied competency (customers) while doing so.

For someone with that background to be willing to dive at more distance from buddies than some might consider 'proper' wouldn't be all that surprising.

Brings to my mind forum discussions where different diver perspectives are compared; some strongly believe in self-reliance, to the extent of not assuming assistance will be available, and some believe strongly in the 'team' approach, an example being a team of GUE DIR-trained divers with standardized gear configurations familiar with each other & one another's gear. With such divergent viewpoints, divers who don't dive together regularly over time are often not on the same page with buddy practices.

All speculation on my part. Take it for what it is (or is not) worth.

Richard.