Rocking the boat - are the scuppers underwater yet?

[MikeFerrara]

Ah, but most of them did not die learning this. They died pushing limits, intentionally, knowing they were doing so. To pontificate that Sheck died by "learning how to cave dive" is preposterous. He died attempting to push the limits of human physiology beyond what anyone else had done before - an attempt he truly thought was possible. He was wrong.

Have you read "basic cave diving a blue print for survival" ?
Sheck Exley used dead divers to derive his cave diving rules. Those people were learning by trial and error. It was therror that got them. There are lots of caves go dive them.

This is rather common among pioneers. I make no claim to being a pioneer.

If you don't know how to cave dive you don't have to do much to be a pioneer. LOL

Good form? According to? Is there some reason why I would do that? It would seem to me that a "community" has to give something to get something. Where I'm from the idea that one must buy a club card means that those who stick their noses up as they demand that are not entitled to what the "little people" do on their own.

The NACD and the NSS-CDS are both non-profit organizations. They make public their charter. You are free to support them or not support them as you choose. They were formed by cave divers to support the needs of cave divers and protect access to caves. They are not trying to sell you anything. Both agencies have had a long standing of NOT encouraging cave diving and only providing training when a diver sought it out. They are not looking for you.

When I say that it's good form to publish survey data I mean to say that it's just the way it's done. It has nothing to do with any agency. However, the contributions of cave divers to non-cave divers is often what helps protect access. Lets face it, the owner of a cave has little reason to want you to dive in it. Cave study and conservation are just things that the "community"tries to support. Since most of us are not geologists, hydrologists or biologists we do maps. We can do that and most of the scientists cant do maps and collect samples because they're not cave divers.

The NACD and the NSS aren't perfect but they are us and they are all we have. We vote for board members and contribute to help keep the whole thing working toward our interest.

The NSS has purchased 2 caves that I know of. They, NACD and/or members manage and have gained us access to others. They both publish maps and support exploration projects.

They do make the rules in the caves that they own. Not only will you need to be a certified cave diver you may also be required to be a member to have access. They do own it afterall and do not owe you or any one else access.

Again, their choice, but to the extent that people play the cronyism game why should I provide something back to that community, when all I see is a hand out and a cash register ready to do some ringing?

So don't then. Cave exploration won't collapse without your contribution.

See, there's the problem Mike. Were I to just buy training, because I need training, that would be a true statement. But of course that's not how it is. Instead, if I do not wish to haul around my fill station, I must have a card with the proper Xs and Os on it to buy a fill from someone's station. Why? Because a group of people got together and decided to do things this way. Now, you say that "good protocol" is that I give them something, when they first stuck their hand out to me.

The cave community did not decide that you need an OW card to buy air. They don't have their hand out to you. The cave diving organizations are a group of people who make decissions for the group. If you choose to not be part of the group then we are even and nobody is in debt to any one. You do not need their card to dive in caves.

Hmmmm.. let me think about that. Let's see, I mixed up my own gas, hauled my own boat, dove in there, did my own survey work, took the time to draw it all up, maybe even took some pictures or video, and now those very same people with their hand out think I should give the product of that effort to them, when they told me to pizz off just a few days prior.

That's what we do. You are free to do it or not. Only, don't expect land owners and the cave diving community in general to do anything for you. Just go get your own access. The NACD and the NSS aren't asking you for anything. They are only making training available if you want it. If you don't like it you can go someplace else or you can join and vote. Maybe you can even get elected to the board and make a decission or two yourself.

I don't see any obligation either. I'm not talking about obligations here. Just don't expect anything approaching comraderie once you turn this into a pure business transaction.

I really don't think any one really expects anything from you. Although we do worry about you messing things up for us if you don't show "good form" Public image is a big part of the key to the caves because most of the worls doesn't care if any of us can dive caves.

Indeed. So why is it four classes Mike? Why not one, with varying levels of certifcation depending on what you can accomplish? Ah, because that would deprive someone of (a big part of) their $2,000?

Cave training can be done as one class. It can also be broken up. The choice is up to you and the instructor but standards allow for both. The minimum number of required dives for the whole thing is exactly the same though. The cost should also be the same. Where did you get the figure of $2000. I didn't pay anywhere near that. I didn't pay anywhere near half of that, in fact

How come the guy who comes in with very little skill, very little experience, never had a set of doubles on his back in his life, never dove dry - he gets the same deal, and the same card, and spends the same money?

Who says it's that way. Maybe that's why I got my class so cheap. I had hundreds of dives in doubles, hundreds of dives in a dry suit and so on. You need to talk to some cave instructors.

 

[MikeFerrara]

When I bust the chops of the dive industry I leave the cave community out of it. Since it's still diving you may need a card to get air but with PADI I didn't get to vote and I don't get to vote with IANTD. I do it their way or I'm down the road.

With the NACD and the NSS you do get to vote. You can run for office. You can get involved in the projects, the work and the decission making. You can go to the meeting and read them the riot act.

Now, there is plenty of politics and if you live in Indiana it's hard to even keep up on what's going on but there are at least some avenues and you have some voice.

It's still a whole different world from the recreational industry.

 

[Genesis]

Have you read "basic cave diving a blue print for survival" ?
Sheck Exley used dead divers to derive his cave diving rules. Those people were learning by trial and error. It was therror that got them. There are lots of caves go dive them.

Yep. I've read it. Makes perfect sense. Indeed, most of it is nothing more than common sense. (Yeah, I know, common sense isn't always so common!)

Cave training can be done as one class. It can also be broken up. The choice is up to you and the instructor but standards allow for both. The minimum number of required dives for the whole thing is exactly the same though. The cost should also be the same. Where did you get the figure of $2000. I didn't pay anywhere near that. I didn't pay anywhere near half of that, in fact

Who says it's that way. Maybe that's why I got my class so cheap. I had hundreds of dives in doubles, hundreds of dives in a dry suit and so on. You need to talk to some cave instructors.

Yeah, I guess I need to talk to a few more than I have thus far.... I've talked to a few, and perused some of the published information.

What I've seen looks like roughly that number, most of it ($1500+) for instruction and the rest for various miscellaneous things (like cave site access charges, etc)

And of course here's the other problem - who? I'm back to where I was in open water again - how do I judge an instructor? If he knows what I know, then I don't need the instruction, right?

(This is generally-speaking my issue with the scuba instructor biz overall; what you don't know is what you need to learn, so by definition you're not competent to judge whether or not the person you're about to hire is any good!)

With the NACD and the NSS you do get to vote. You can run for office. You can get involved in the projects, the work and the decission making. You can go to the meeting and read them the riot act.

Now, there is plenty of politics and if you live in Indiana it's hard to even keep up on what's going on but there are at least some avenues and you have some voice.

It's still a whole different world from the recreational industry.

This is good to know.

 

[weekender]

Genesis, I am a bit confused with the point to your post. It is their agency, institution or business. Not yours. They make their own rules and if you don't like it join the board and try to get it changed. That's it. No real discussion. why are you waxing on about a mute point? I work with some Harvard mba's that im certain I know more than. Are you saying that Harvard should allow me to take a test and then give me a degree? Does that make sense to you? because it should not. and it would take to long to explain why. Maybe, however, that would seem fair to you. but life isn't fair. You are going to give yourself an ulcer if you try to make other people do what you believe is fair. as my old man would always say to me as a kid," life isn't fair, get used to it." his philosophy has served me well. keeps me mellow. lastly, im at work and was not careful with my wording so I want to make it clear im not trying to insult or incite genesis. I was smiling as I typed this.

 

[Genesis]

The point is that there are many agencies and even instructors who are hypocrites.

I don't care what you sell.

I do very much care that you sell what you say you're selling, and that if you say you're not "selling" credentials, that you not actually be doing so.

 

[Gibbon]

Um...while we're sitting around interpreting slogans "training is purchased, certification is earned". Why don't we broaden the horizon: "Be all that you can be, in the ARMY" does this "slogan" imply that I'm not being all that I can be without the ARMY?.

"The point is that there are many agencies and even instructors who are hypocrites."

there are many PEOPLE who are hypocrites. This is a simple fact of life. I'd prefer that people say what they mean, and mean what they say, but I'll not hold my breath till everyone in a community (much less the world) stops being hypocrites.

Have you ever noticed that most slogans you see has quotes around them? know why? "this is an opinion".

 

[grazie42]

Genesis once bubbled...

I do very much care that you sell what you say you're selling, and that if you say you're not "selling" credentials, that you not actually be doing so.

From a legal standpoint (at least a swedish one) a tag line or slogan or whatever GENERAL communication you might encounter is not a promise to deliver ANYTHING to YOU specifically. Not the army (reffering to Gibbon here) or whatever agency you got that quote from is actually promising that you will do or recieve any of those things just as Kellogs isn´t promising that you will think frosties are grrrreat!

What they do promise, once you actually start to interact with them is a clearly defined and "limited" product in return for a specified compensation. If you ask they will tell you what´s included and what´s not, if you dont accept their offer (and Genesis seems not to) then you are free to go somewhere else or indeed to :angry: as far as they´re concerned...

If you don´t like this idea (of course you are free to express your opinions/feelings) then that´s to bad...The rest of us though (the majority according to the rules of the "majority") are going to continue going about our business...

 

[DORSETBOY]

Genesis, if you dont like the agencies dont train with them, if you dont want to do a course dont do it, just dont expect a training agency to bend over backwards to acomodate the know it alls who think they have a right to a cert without the instructor running them through the course to assess them. I'd also add that if any diver wanted me to take them diving beyond their limits without their doing the necessary training I'd quite happily lose their customer EVERY time. With the prevalence of lawyers looking to sue instructors and other professionals you cant blame them for wanting to check the students they sign. We have too many people having accidents diving as it is by pushing themselves beyond the limits of their training / experience.

 

[Genesis]

Genesis, if you dont like the agencies dont train with them, if you dont want to do a course dont do it, just dont expect a training agency to bend over backwards to acomodate the know it alls who think they have a right to a cert without the instructor running them through the course to assess them. I'd also add that if any diver wanted me to take them diving beyond their limits without their doing the necessary training I'd quite happily lose their customer EVERY time. With the prevalence of lawyers looking to sue instructors and other professionals you cant blame them for wanting to check the students they sign. We have too many people having accidents diving as it is by pushing themselves beyond the limits of their training / experience.

I've already proposed a way to solve the lawyer problem.

As for the "too many" argument, it rings hollow; the statistics say you're simply wrong, and a zero injury/death quotient is unachieveable in any human endeavor.

You might want to think about that "zero" incident demand before you take a bath the next time.....a surprising number of people kill themselves attempting nothing more complicated than bathing.