Rocking the boat - are the scuppers underwater yet?

[Genesis]

Ok, here's a good one.

Remember the claim "training is purchased, certification is earned"?

Its the "mantra" of one of the agencies out there today.

Would you agree with that sentiment? I would.

But is it false advertising? Good question. Let's explore this a bit.

Let's posit a diver who has their OW card, and dives a lot. He wants to dive Nitrox. Now to have that Nitrox card, there is a set of standards he must meet.

Ok. What if that diver already meets the standards?

Why can he not just (1) take whatever tests are appropriate, and (2) pay the card processing fee?

Hmm......

Why too cannot someone who, for example, does deco dives, dives doubles, knows "the rules", has his trim and buoyancy sorted out, show up, take the test for "advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures" (perhaps with a dive or two with an instructor to verify they can actually DO the diving, paying them as a "divemaster" along with paying for the boat charter and gas, if their tanks are not already full) and receive the card - again, for the cost of processing the "certification"?

Hmm....

Now how about cave diving? There's Cavern, Intro, Apprentice and Full through most agencies (GUE being the exception.) Why? Ever read the syllabus for those classes? Notice anything? Other than additional line skills, what's different between "Intro" and "Full", assuming you show up for Cavern or Intro in doubles?

So..... to those agencies and instructors who claim "training is purchased, certification is earned", I put forth this challenge:

How come one must pay for training one does not need to purchase? And indeed, is not such a diver purchasing CERTIFICATION rather than training?

Rhetoric is very pretty, but it does not make better divers. Nor does having a card (apparently) prove you can actually dive, if reports (and what most of us have seen) are to be believed.

If I can "buy" an OW card without being able to make a free ascent without hanging onto an anchor line while in control, complete with a neutral buoyancy safety stop for the requisite 3 minutes, how come I can't get a deco procedures card if I can show an instructor that I can actually do the diving without paying for a class I don't need?

Has it ALL become about money?

(Only half-sorry about the musing - when I'm sitting here in 40F weather, with 20 knot winds and a small-craft advisory up, I have to come up with SOMETHING other than diving to do )

 

[MikeFerrara]

Ok, here's a good one.

Remember the claim "training is purchased, certification is earned"?

Its the "mantra" of one of the agencies out there today.

I don't know who said it first but I heard it from IANTD before I even heard of this agency. LOL

Of course the implication is that paying for the class doesn't garranty certification.

Would you agree with that sentiment? I would.

But is it false advertising? Good question. Let's explore this a bit.

Let's posit a diver who has their OW card, and dives a lot. He wants to dive Nitrox. Now to have that Nitrox card, there is a set of standards he must meet.

Ok. What if that diver already meets the standards?

Why can he not just (1) take whatever tests are appropriate, and (2) pay the card processing fee?

I think at least two agencies don't require any dives so this should be easy. You're of course going to pay an instructor to administer the test but other than that it should work out.

Hmm......

Why too cannot someone who, for example, does deco dives, dives doubles, knows "the rules", has his trim and buoyancy sorted out, show up, take the test for "advanced Nitrox and Deco Procedures" (perhaps with a dive or two with an instructor to verify they can actually DO the diving, paying them as a "divemaster" along with paying for the boat charter and gas, if their tanks are not already full) and receive the card - again, for the cost of processing the "certification"?

With IANTD you can do this. I would have to check the standards to find out what the minimum that has to be done to give credit before I give specifics. I've never had any one try. I've certainly never had an Advanced Nitrox student who was very good comming in.

Hmm....

Now how about cave diving? There's Cavern, Intro, Apprentice and Full through most agencies (GUE being the exception.) Why? Ever read the syllabus for those classes? Notice anything? Other than additional line skills, what's different between "Intro" and "Full", assuming you show up for Cavern or Intro in doubles?

The difference is several cave dives. With the NACD you do a traverse and a circuit in the full cave portion along with the jumps and gaps that go with them. I don't remember how many dives are in the full cave portion but it takes two dives to do a traverse and two dives to do a circuit.

Also, I can tell you that part of this is definately a test. You'll be set up. Different instructors have different ways of doing it but you will run into situations in the cave. Whether or not you leave with a card will depend on how you handle those situations. I don't think there are many cave instructors who will want to certify you without seeing this with their own eyes. I don't think a log book full of cave dives will cut it.

Another thing I'll tell you is that if you go into full cave training and you're good. You may very well see cave that you wouldn't see for years on your own. If you're not so good you'll spend alot of time doing drills and short little dives on the main line. Most good cave or tech instructors will give you you're money's worth and challenge you no matter how good you are. Where ever you are they'll take you a notch higher if you're willing.

So..... to those agencies and instructors who claim "training is purchased, certification is earned", I put forth this challenge:

How come one must pay for training one does not need to purchase? And indeed, is not such a diver purchasing CERTIFICATION rather than training?

As I said in technical training there are ways to get credit for what you can already do and know. the burden of proof, however is on you.

Rhetoric is very pretty, but it does not make better divers. Nor does having a card (apparently) prove you can actually dive, if reports (and what most of us have seen) are to be believed.

Reading between the lines I'll mention that even GUE has a procedure for giving credit. I was complaining about having to take an Advanced trimix class. A GUE Instructor read my complaint and brought that to my attention. He wasn't a tech 2 instructor but he offered to get me the specifics. My guess is that with those guys the test to test out would be harder than the class. LOL

If I can "buy" an OW card without being able to make a free ascent without hanging onto an anchor line while in control, complete with a neutral buoyancy safety stop for the requisite 3 minutes, how come I can't get a deco procedures card if I can show an instructor that I can actually do the diving without paying for a class I don't need?

Hopefully we won't lump good tech instructors in with some of the OW instructors who can barely dive but who says you can't get a legalization process from a technical instructor? have you talked to any one?

Has it ALL become about money?

As some one in favor of a free market I would think that you would expect it to be about money. LOL

 

[Genesis]

I don't care if its about money - I do very much care if its being SOLD as being about something other than money, particularly when access to various things (e.g. fills, boat rides, caves, etc) is predicated on you being "safe" if you possess the card - but not if you don't.

Honesty does not bother me. Dishonesty wrapped in the claim of "safety" when the real purpose is profit, on the other hand, does.

 

[MikeFerrara]

When it comes to boat access it's up to the owner/captain

But, You can cave dive all you want without a card. The only caves where a card is required are the caves that are in parks, private property (up to the owner) and the few caves that are owned or managed by the agencies.

There are hundreds if not thousands of caves where you don't need a card. Many are right in your area too. Put your gear in a small boat and travel the rivers looking for springs. If you can access them without trespassing or if you can get permission from the land owner you can dive them all you want and nobody can say a thing.

There are several rivers in Missouri where you can do the same thing.

There's caves all over Kentucky, Tenessee and who knows where else and you do not need any card. Have at it!

One of the neatest, prettiest and deepest caves in the country is entered through a hole at the bottom of a public resevoir (sp). All you have to do is go dive it.

 

[OneBrightGator]

Karl, one thing you're missing is that the ultimate goal of the class is not to pass the test, but to learn what you need to know, just because you passed the test, doesn't mean you everything that was covered in the class (think back to your OW class, was every hand sign on the test? how about every combination of depth and time in the table questions?). This doesn't mean you don't know everything from the class, but you do have a much better chance if you actually attend.

Think about it this way... what if the engineer who designed the next bridge you drive over or high rise you go into never went to one class session, never did any homework or other work, just passed every final, would you still feel as comfortable?

Ben

 

[Scott M]

Hmmmm....could it be the liability issue??? The Nitrox Class I just took might be a good example. The instructor went over the book quite well but mostly from memory, the book was some 50 pages long, the test was 16 questions, one signature at the end.

OTOH the liability form he read word for word and each paragraph had to be initialed that you understood it completely. The end had to be signed stating you understood what you were read and what you initialed. This was for the liability form not that you understood the information presented in the course or the information presented by the instructor...the liability form.

Whats that say about our society?

It would be a lawyers field day.

 

[Genesis]

Karl, one thing you're missing is that the ultimate goal of the class is not to pass the test, but to learn what you need to know.

.....

Think about it this way... what if the engineer who designed the next bridge you drive over or high rise you go into never went to one class session, never did any homework or other work, just passed every final, would you still feel as comfortable?

Ben

If I know what I need to know, why can I not have the card?

I'm not arguing about "passing the test" Ben. I'm arguing about paying for a card - exactly what people say they don't want in this industry, yet most of those who yell the loudest seem to be talking the most out both sides of their mouths!

As for the engineer, I will simply point out that not all that long ago, there were no "engineers" building watercraft in the recreational market. My Hatteras was built in that era. It was OVERBUILT, because there was nobody to figure out exactly how thin they could shave the scantlings and still have it stay together.

Now, they have such people on staff, but its not for the reason you might think - to build a better product. No, now its to figure out how much of an expensive thing (glass and resin) they can remove without having the boat fall apart the second day you use it.

Frankly, I prefer the old way of doing things.

How many classes do you think Sheck Exley took in Cave Diving, and how many cards do you think he held? Go down the list - other than retroactive "gifts" for those who are the "names" in the industry - how many of them did it the way those very same people say you must do it now?

I'm not arguing that "buying cards" is necessarily invalid OBG. I'm arguing that it is dishonest to claim that you're not selling them when indeed you really are selling both them and "access."

I would like to buy instruction when and where I need to purchase it - but first, how about Mr. Instructor and I get in the water, we do a dive or two together, and between us we figure out (1) what I actually do need to know, .vs. what I already know and (2) what "cert" I'm qualified for right now, .vs. what someone wants to sell me.

This way I buy instruction rather than a card.

All I'm asking is that those who pontificate about how horrible the current state of the world is in this area, yet who profit from it being that way, be self-consistent.

If I can meet the skill requirements for a "Intro" card, why can I not have one without paying $800 for both it and the cavern class? If I can mix my own Nitrox, run my own table for a deco dive, O2 clean my own kit, and actually dive that plan with proper buoyancy control, arriving back on the boat with a download from my gauge that matches the planned profile, along with being able to perform the in-water skills (e.g. valve manipulation, etc), why can I not have the "Deco procedures" card without forking up the money for THAT class?

Its one thing to pay for a class when you need to be taught the material, because you simply don't know it (or can't do it!)

Its another to pay for a class, yet get only a card.

Knowledge you already have doesn't need to be taught.

 

[MikeFerrara]

If I know what I need to know, why can I not have the card?

I'm not arguing about "passing the test" Ben. I'm arguing about paying for a card - exactly what people say they don't want in this industry, yet most of those who yell the loudest seem to be talking the most out both sides of their mouths!

I really don't that whoever made up the saying that you quoted thought of the twist that you put on it. The saying is neaning to convey that paying for a class doesn't automatically get you a card. You have to earn it. The agency defines what earning their card is. If they say that you must spens x amount of time in the water with an instructor and do y then you have earned their card when you have done that. Just because you know the material or think you do and have a million dives does not mean that you have earned a card from them. I guess you could print your own though.

Frankly, I prefer the old way of doing things.

How many classes do you think Sheck Exley took in Cave Diving, and how many cards do you think he held? Go down the list - other than retroactive "gifts" for those who are the "names" in the industry - how many of them did it the way those very same people say you must do it now?

Here I'd remind you that a large percentage of the people you reference are dead. They died learning this stuff by trial and error. I already told you that there are more caves that can be dived without a card than you can dive in a lifetime. Go dive them if you want. I would just point out that it's considered good form to publish your survey data if you get into a cave with no line in it and there are many of them.

I'm not arguing that "buying cards" is necessarily invalid OBG. I'm arguing that it is dishonest to claim that you're not selling them when indeed you really are selling both them and "access."

With the acception of the caves that are owned by the NSS-CDS, the agencies are not selling access. However the land owner of some other caves does require a card and as the land owner that is within their rights.

If an agency gives you a card without requireing you to do the training then they are selling cards. If they require you to do the training then they are selling training. Strictly speaking, though, the instructor sells training and the agency sells cards.

I would like to buy instruction when and where I need to purchase it - but first, how about Mr. Instructor and I get in the water, we do a dive or two together, and between us we figure out (1) what I actually do need to know, .vs. what I already know and (2) what "cert" I'm qualified for right now, .vs. what someone wants to sell me.

This way I buy instruction rather than a card.

I disagree. Except is certain special situations an agency does not authorize to designd a special class just for you. They lay out the prerequisits and what must be done. The instructor is authorized to work within that framework only. If he designs a special class just for you then it isn't the agencies class it's his class. Would you settle for a card he prints out on his computer? They don't offer the instructor an infinate number of different classes so there might be some amount of slot fitting

All I'm asking is that those who pontificate about how horrible the current state of the world is in this area, yet who profit from it being that way, be self-consistent.

The horrible state of training that I refer to is when students get cards for not doing things or not doing them well not when some one who thinks they already knoe the stuff is denied a card from an agency without being trained by that agency. If you are self taught what makes you think that an agency should feel obligated to give you a card with their name on it? Why should an instructor put his/her name on it when they didn't train you? Even if they do I don't see any obligation to do so.

If I can meet the skill requirements for a "Intro" card, why can I not have one without paying $800 for both it and the cavern class? If I can mix my own Nitrox, run my own table for a deco dive, O2 clean my own kit, and actually dive that plan with proper buoyancy control, arriving back on the boat with a download from my gauge that matches the planned profile, along with being able to perform the in-water skills (e.g. valve manipulation, etc), why can I not have the "Deco procedures" card without forking up the money for THAT class?

If you think you can meet the skill requirement of an intro, just how do you propose to prove it? In order to do that you must go into a cave. So...somehow you need to get checked out on cavern skills. The fact is that the lions share of cave specific skills are taught in the cavern class. While there are additional drills in in and full much of it is going a little further on more comples dives and gaining experience.

What do you propose? Are you going to show the instructor a log book full of cave dives? He might want to see your technique when installing a jump reel or how you react when your buddy disappears before he signs you off. He might want to see how you hold up on a long dive and how well you perform in a cave while fatigued. If he dives with you enough to see that guess what. He did the class. If you're good it just goes faster.

Like they say...you don't know what you don't know...but the instructor might.

Its one thing to pay for a class when you need to be taught the material, because you simply don't know it (or can't do it!)

Its another to pay for a class, yet get only a card.

Knowledge you already have doesn't need to be taught.

I agree if all you get is the card then that's all you should have to pay for. If you take a cave class and don't learn anything I would not only complain but I would stay out of caves until you find out what you've missed. LOL well, unless you've got a background like Sheck Exley or Tom Mount.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Some examples of experience credit in dive training...

Padi allows credit to be given towards the OW class for experienced divers who were never certified. You still have to do some stuff but not the whole class. I don't have those standards in front of me and have never had need to use them so I won't bother with specifics unless some one asks for them.

PADI also will allow you into a rescue class without having taken AOW provided you have logged proof of experience in deep, night and nav with a minimum number of dives. I never had some one just walk in and drop thei log book on the table and ask for an AOW card so I'd have to call the office to ask about that one. I don't have to worry about that though because I didn't renew my membership. LOL

Earlier I mentioned that IANTD did allow credit for experince and said that I needed to check standards. Here is an example...

The prerequisites for an Advanced Nitrox class are Nitrox and the deep diver course. However, if you can show proof of 50 logged dives with 10 of those between 90 and 130 ft and pass the deep diver exam and demonstrate all the confined and shallow water skills (the list of which is pretty extensive) then you may be given credit for it.

Now the standards aren't clear as to whether or not I could issue you a deep diver card if you weren't taking Advanced Nitrox so I would have to ask. It also doesn't say anything about being given credit for Nitrox so I would have to ask how that could be handled.

I can't give any examples for the higher level technical courses because I don't teach those and don't have those course specific standards.

As you can see there are plenty of examples of agencies giving credit for what you already have done and what you know. I will add that all these things are at the instructors discetion. If I am in doubt I am always at liberty to require the whole thing from you before I sign my name. BTW, the agency doesn't have a choice in that because it's my name.

If you have specific standards questions let me know and I'll try to get an answer. When situations come up that the written standards don't seem to address, and it happens, we get on the phone. Sometimes it's a question that the agency never thought of and a decission is made.

 

[Genesis]

I really don't that whoever made up the saying that you quoted thought of the twist that you put on it. The saying is neaning to convey that paying for a class doesn't automatically get you a card. You have to earn it. The agency defines what earning their card is.

Yes, and what the agency defines as "earning" the card amounts to paying for it, irrespective of whether you learned anything new at all.

I quit college when I got to a supposedly-junior-level-class (as a sophmore) and knew the material better than the professor did, to the point that he had to admit, red-faced, that he was wrong several times in front of a lecture hall of students over the course of a month or so.

The Dean saw nothing wrong with me having paid for nothing. I saw a great deal wrong with it. About that time I began to make more money writing software (in my SPARE TIME!) than the college was charging me in tuition, room and board.

The choice was obvious - do, or pay to sit and have my intelligence insulted.

I decided to do.

Here I'd remind you that a large percentage of the people you reference are dead. They died learning this stuff by trial and error.

Ah, but most of them did not die learning this. They died pushing limits, intentionally, knowing they were doing so. To pontificate that Sheck died by "learning how to cave dive" is preposterous. He died attempting to push the limits of human physiology beyond what anyone else had done before - an attempt he truly thought was possible. He was wrong.

This is rather common among pioneers. I make no claim to being a pioneer.

I already told you that there are more caves that can be dived without a card than you can dive in a lifetime. Go dive them if you want. I would just point out that it's considered good form to publish your survey data if you get into a cave with no line in it and there are many of them.

Good form? According to? Is there some reason why I would do that? It would seem to me that a "community" has to give something to get something. Where I'm from the idea that one must buy a club card means that those who stick their noses up as they demand that are not entitled to what the "little people" do on their own.

With the acception of the caves that are owned by the NSS-CDS, the agencies are not selling access. However the land owner of some other caves does require a card and as the land owner that is within their rights.

Again, their choice, but to the extent that people play the cronyism game why should I provide something back to that community, when all I see is a hand out and a cash register ready to do some ringing?

If an agency gives you a card without requireing you to do the training then they are selling cards. If they require you to do the training then they are selling training. Strictly speaking, though, the instructor sells training and the agency sells cards.

Ah, but for the card the instructor would have nothing to sell, right?

See, there's the problem Mike. Were I to just buy training, because I need training, that would be a true statement. But of course that's not how it is. Instead, if I do not wish to haul around my fill station, I must have a card with the proper Xs and Os on it to buy a fill from someone's station. Why? Because a group of people got together and decided to do things this way. Now, you say that "good protocol" is that I give them something, when they first stuck their hand out to me.

Hmmmm.. let me think about that. Let's see, I mixed up my own gas, hauled my own boat, dove in there, did my own survey work, took the time to draw it all up, maybe even took some pictures or video, and now those very same people with their hand out think I should give the product of that effort to them, when they told me to pizz off just a few days prior.

This seems to be a really tough decision....

The horrible state of training that I refer to is when students get cards for not doing things or not doing them well not when some one who thinks they already knoe the stuff is denied a card from an agency without being trained by that agency. If you are self taught what makes you think that an agency should feel obligated to give you a card with their name on it? Why should an instructor put his/her name on it when they didn't train you? Even if they do I don't see any obligation to do so.

I don't see any obligation either. I'm not talking about obligations here. Just don't expect anything approaching comraderie once you turn this into a pure business transaction.

If you think you can meet the skill requirement of an intro, just how do you propose to prove it? In order to do that you must go into a cave. So...somehow you need to get checked out on cavern skills. The fact is that the lions share of cave specific skills are taught in the cavern class. While there are additional drills in in and full much of it is going a little further on more comples dives and gaining experience.

Indeed. So why is it four classes Mike? Why not one, with varying levels of certifcation depending on what you can accomplish? Ah, because that would deprive someone of (a big part of) their $2,000?

How come the guy who comes in with very little skill, very little experience, never had a set of doubles on his back in his life, never dove dry - he gets the same deal, and the same card, and spends the same money?

See, in the "real world" it don't work like that. In the real world you get in proportion to what you can do, not what you have a piece of paper saying you've passed.

What do you propose? Are you going to show the instructor a log book full of cave dives? He might want to see your technique when installing a jump reel or how you react when your buddy disappears before he signs you off. He might want to see how you hold up on a long dive and how well you perform in a cave while fatigued. If he dives with you enough to see that guess what. He did the class. If you're good it just goes faster.

Does it? See, I don't know if it does. And if it does, how come I pay the same price as the guy who goes slower or doesn't have the basics figured out?

Like they say...you don't know what you don't know...but the instructor might.

I agree if all you get is the card then that's all you should have to pay for. If you take a cave class and don't learn anything I would not only complain but I would stay out of caves until you find out what you've missed. LOL well, unless you've got a background like Sheck Exley or Tom Mount.

Learn anything? Or learn commensurate with the investment? There's a big difference.

This is one thing I like about diving off my own boat, with my own compressor, and with my own friends. I don't have to flash any cards, and the only judge of my skill (or lack thereof) is Darwin. My limits are set by myself, in my own judgment. If I'm wrong, I pay for it. My progression is not limited by someone with their hand out like an overgrown troll on the bridge, but rather by my own effort and ability - nothing more or less.

Were I diving on cattle boats, I'd still probably have nothing more than an OW card, and would likely have never done much beyond using my cert to clean my own boat's hull of barnacles.

Fortunately, I figured out early on that I didn't have to play the game.

So is there a reason for me to play at all in that game?

Maybe.

So far, however, you (generically, but including you Mike) are not doing a very good job of selling me on it.

(BTW, Mike, I'm not trying to bust your chops here - I'm poking at the entire system, not at you personally. My personal view is that there is a LOT more information available these days due to the velocity of information having greatly accelerated, and as such, for those who will both seek that information and use their cognitive abilities - assuming they have them - many of the "old rules" are no longer really very solid in terms of how one should, or "must", accomplish a given thing. Its the "gatekeeper" mentality in which the lock is keyed only by money that I object to - not the general concept of paying for knowledge.)