Risk perception

[h90]

This is a follow up to the thread Unbelievable Video. How do we perceive risk.
Same kid, different situations. Rate them as to greatest risk to least risk.

1- Riding a bike on city streets with friends
2- Riding behind his father on the father's motorcycle
3- Playing organized football
4- Riding a dirt motorcycle or 4 wheeler in the woods
5- Diving with his father as in video

To add: there are every year terrible accidents when skiing, but it is complete normal that parents teach it and there are not much regulations.
The same amount of dead people in Scuba and we would see the maximum allowed deep at 10 meter and for beginner so that they can stand up and go home in case of any problem.

You are right we over/undervalue risks without any logic.

I just remember in some countries kids are allowed to drive cars with 16. In my country we would think that is complete mad.

 

[redrover]

To add: there are every year terrible accidents when skiing, but it is complete normal that parents teach it and there are not much regulations.
The same amount of dead people in Scuba and we would see the maximum allowed deep at 10 meter and for beginner so that they can stand up and go home in case of any problem.

You are right we over/undervalue risks without any logic.

I just remember in some countries kids are allowed to drive cars with 16. In my country we would think that is complete mad.

LOL. My mother insisted I get my license on my 16th birthday. Couldn’t wait until I could drive myself to/from sports activities.

 

[ozziworld]

I agree with most of the posts here regarding the perception or risks. The point made about skiing and kids was a good example. Same applies to horseback riding and other more "popular" activities.

Since driving is many time more "practical" than the recreational activities we tag as dangerous I think people's perception on teenage drivers are more varied. The post mentioning driving a tractor on a farm is another good example.

I would like to add that all children, just as all adults are different. Some people are simply more risk averse and others are more adventurous. It IS the training that makes the difference in being prepared to engage in an activity that is inherently dangerous.

Then there is the Emotional Quotient of each individual and their ability to maintain their composure and effect action based on their training and knowledge and not their emotional state.

Any Emotionaly Mature person regardless of age, recognizes "doing dangerous things carefully". Nothing should ever be done "recklessly"

I agree with most posters on the sequence that the most dangerous are the ones that involve the added variable of other drivers on our roads.

 

[Dtaine]

This is a follow up to the thread Unbelievable Video. How do we perceive risk.
Same kid, different situations. Rate them as to greatest risk to least risk.

1- Riding a bike on city streets with friends
2- Riding behind his father on the father's motorcycle
3- Playing organized football
4- Riding a dirt motorcycle or 4 wheeler in the woods
5- Diving with his father as in video

We don't know the variables, but here are some facts.

In 2006:

There were 72.34 deaths and 1,311 injuries per 100,000 registered motorcycles. Source NHTSA.gov. (USA)

There was 1 football fatality (3 in 2005, 4 in 2007). Source National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury Research. (USA)

There were 773 pedalcyclist fatalities. (USA)

DAN's 2006 Report on Decompression Illness, Diving Fatalities and Project Dive Exploration states "the annual fatality rate for DAN Members between 1997 and 2004 varied between 11 and 18 deaths per 100,000 members per year." (DAN members, statistics might not reflect the SCUBA community as a whole)

Based on this information, my order, from most risky to least, is 24153. From the statistics I've seen it's clear operating a motor vehicle (or being on the road) is riskier than diving.

That's a simple risk assessment, but to add to that more people would die from motorcycle accidents, bicycle accidents, and organized football if they weren't wearing helmets, leathers, pads, etc. "NHTSA estimates that helmets saved 1,784 motorcyclists' lives in 2007." Not having the proper equipment puts you at a greater risk of injury or death. It is clear to me that the kid in that video did not have what most of us consider basic scuba equipment, and is by logical reasoning at greater risk of sustaining injury or death.

There's something else to point out, DAN lists the triggering event for the fatalities (i.e. the first problem). It was insufficient gas 14% of the time. Now do you consider one tank sufficient gas for two people? I don't, but I guess the guys in the video do.

Just a note: I couldn't access DAN's actual report, but rather found it reported at http://www.scuba-diving-smiles.com/scuba-diving-deaths.html; I cannot guarantee it was corrected cited. Logical reasoning still applies, however.

 

[Ed Palma]

If someone told me a story of some guy teaching his kid scuba skills while breathing off an octo, I'd probably shake my head a bit. But seeing the actual video, and seeing the skills of the kid, I'd say that they're probably diving within their limits.

Bottom line is that it's a case-to-case basis. I've seen (and definitely done) a lot of stupid stuff - but they were all within the context of diving within the limits of my comfort and skill. I've thumbed dives the moment I felt the conditions were changing beyond my capabilities.

Of course, the trick is in knowing what your actual limitations are. Some might argue that this can be learned through doing the skills in an organized and controlled environment. While this is true, there are people out there who cannot translate skills in the pool to OW.

 

[sharkbitejeff]

You are exactly right JR. Too many times people here look for the worst. The adult in the video seemed to be completely in control and the child seemed to be doing just fine. I have a friend who is is an padi and naui instructor from Brazil and used to train our navy seals. He probably has 30 years exp. He kisses his students the same way , and he says that in his country the students are younger. He now teaches people with handicaps and who are challenged. and I know some are going to say that this is crazy, But when you see what the experience does for the indivdual. It would change your mind.

 

[J.R.]

There was 1 football fatality (3 in 2005, 4 in 2007). Source National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury Research. (USA)

WOW... a 25% increase in ONLY 2 years!!!! (2005-2007) Time to ban this OBVIOUSLY out of control spiraling of fatalities!!!

... sorry... but to ask "do you think one tank of gas is enough for two people" it's kinda' like that kind of analysis...

1: We DO NOT know the circumstances under which this was shot...
2: We DO NOT know the qualifications of the *instructor* or kid...
3: We DO NOT know the child's previous general in-water skill set
4: We DO NOT know the depth
5: We DO NOT know the duration
6: We DO NOT know what other support was around (at least one photog.)
7: We DO NOT know the purpose of the demonstration (proud father???)
8: We DO NOT know... a lot of things...

The best we can say is that we have younger than normal person breathing off a reg in a non-PADI approved manner...

 

[captain]

To add: there are every year terrible accidents when skiing, but it is complete normal that parents teach it and there are not much regulations.
The same amount of dead people in Scuba and we would see the maximum allowed deep at 10 meter and for beginner so that they can stand up and go home in case of any problem.

You are right we over/undervalue risks without any logic.

I just remember in some countries kids are allowed to drive cars with 16. In my country we would think that is complete mad.

And most kids are taught to drive by parents who are not "officially certified" to do so and may not be the best of drivers themselves.

 

[Gene_Hobbs]

Just a note: I couldn't access DAN's actual report, but rather found it reported at http://www.scuba-diving-smiles.com/scuba-diving-deaths.html; I cannot guarantee it was corrected cited. Logical reasoning still applies, however.

All of the DAN Fatality reports are in the Rubicon Research Repository here. Other reports are available as well and can be found listed in our Suggested Reading for "Diving Accidents and Fatalities" page.

As for risk... There are some very nice articles found with a search for "diving and risk". Edmonds always gives me a little to think about...

Happy hunting!

 

[Noboundaries]

Skill level of dad in the video?

When was the last time you saw an instructor sculling continously with his/her hands while giving or watching a skills demonstration? Continous sculling is something new divers do.