Regulators Depth Limitations

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tbone1004

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awap, what are the Poseidons and Hollis 500se's/Omega 3's flowing? The Jetstream especially should be able to flow more than the Pilot did, but either way it is far more than any 3 people could breathe....
 
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awap, what are the Poseidons and Hollis 500se's/Omega 3's flowing? The Jetstream especially should be able to flow more than the Pilot did, but either way it is far more than any 3 people could breathe....

I am not familiar particulars of those other. The Pilot has a larger than most opening (diameter) of the main LP seat and a fairly weak mechanical spring (compared to the typical balanced barrel poppet design) resulting in higher than flow capacity. Pilot numbers were documented in an old USN test. More current USN tests of a fleet of regulators had some surpass it at shallower (recreational) depths but I don't believe any surpassed it in the 200 ft range. The Pilot results are in ADA048033 which I am having trouble opening right now. There are some Poseidon and Omega 3 results in ADA186590. We'll have to look. I was focusing on data at depths greater than 130 ft.
 
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Remy B.

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Continuing with the capabilities of the Titan LX, the dealer here in the Island told me that they can be oxygen cleaned and oxygen compatible O-rings can be installed, so I can use these regulators for Deco gas with higher %O2, is there any trade off ???, like some things in live, it is good for one application but bad for another one, is this the case or do I just make it a more flexible regulator ??

I know that I need to Color Code the 2nd stage with green mount piece and cover to avoid confusion, but beside this, is it a good idea to make it Oxygen ready and dive it with regular air in the mean time, or not recommended ??

Thanks again for your time and opinions
 

beanojones

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Deco reg should be simple unbalanced piston, or a swiveling barrel design, and should be DIN. You probably want to keep them somewhere away from other stuff.

Don't try and make a main reg in to a deco reg. They are different things.
 

AfterDark

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Continuing with the capabilities of the Titan LX, the dealer here in the Island told me that they can be oxygen cleaned and oxygen compatible O-rings can be installed, so I can use these regulators for Deco gas with higher %O2, is there any trade off ???, like some things in live, it is good for one application but bad for another one, is this the case or do I just make it a more flexible regulator ??

I know that I need to Color Code the 2nd stage with green mount piece and cover to avoid confusion, but beside this, is it a good idea to make it Oxygen ready and dive it with regular air in the mean time, or not recommended ??

Thanks again for your time and opinions

The green color indicates O2 so the reg would be a dedicated O2 reg. If you used it on a tank of air that wasn't filled from a nitrox whip you'd have a reg unsuitable for O2 use until it was re-cleaned. An O2 reg is just that for use with O2.
 
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Remy B.

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It will be then like an overkill to convert them in too Deco regulator in the case I put my hands on APEKS mains, am I better off staying with them as my mains since they are as well balanced?

My comment comes that, I don't like how the unbalanced regulators breath, is there a technical reason why they should be piston unbalanced ?

---------- Post added April 18th, 2015 at 02:52 PM ----------

If you used it on a tank of air that wasn't filled from a nitrox whip you'd have a reg unsuitable for O2 use until it was re-cleaned. An O2 reg is just that for use with O2.

Didn't know that, I was under the wrong impression that it was the lubricants and the seals that were not compatible with high O2, so they have to be a dedicated Nitrox only regulator, does this means higher than 40% O2 use only.

Don't understand exactly were you will contaminate the O2 regulator, to where it can be dangerus if you use it with air, are there concerns of auto ignition ? In a small volume area trapped from the 1st to the 2nd stage, by the purging test when you install them on the O2 bottle, will it not eliminate whatever makes it not clean.

when you take and O2 regulator of the bottle, you are exposing the inlet of the 1st stage to ambient air, so it is kind of contaminating it right ?

thanks for your comments, this is new territory for me.
 

AfterDark

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It will be then like an overkill to convert them in too Deco regulator in the case I put my hands on APEKS mains, am I better off staying with them as my mains since they are as well balanced?

My comment comes that, I don't like how the unbalanced regulators breath, is there a technical reason why they should be piston unbalanced ?

---------- Post added April 18th, 2015 at 02:52 PM ----------



Didn't know that, I was under the wrong impression that it was the lubricants and the seals that were not compatible with high O2, so they have to be a dedicated Nitrox only regulator, does this means higher than 40% O2 use only.

Don't understand exactly were you will contaminate the O2 regulator, to where it can be dangerus if you use it with air, are there concerns of auto ignition ? In a small volume area trapped from the 1st to the 2nd stage, by the purging test when you install them on the O2 bottle, will it not eliminate whatever makes it not clean.

when you take and O2 regulator of the bottle, you are exposing the inlet of the 1st stage to ambient air, so it is kind of contaminating it right ?

thanks for your comments, this is new territory for me.


It's the standards used to certify for O2 clean. Regular air doesn't meet the standards if it did there would be no need to clean for O2 use in the first place. When I refer to O2 it is 100%; if it is some percentage I use the % sign. The over 40% is an illusion created by the agencies to extract more money from us. One either understands PP PPO and the tables and/or the computers when using anything over 21% or one doesn't. To have a nitrox cert is IMO outrageous then to compound it with another phony cert for over 40% is insulting.

These things are color coded for use on the surface once at depth most of those colors are washed out and mean nothing.

My tanks are O2 cleaned because the LDS I use blends nitrox, that is they put 100% O2 in my tanks then dilute it to the required %. If I bring my tanks to a different LDS that doesn't have O2 cleaned air delivery then by the standards those tanks need to be re-cleaned for O2 use. When using banked nitrox, tanks don't need O2 cleaning because they will not see O2 (100%). Now, my regs are not O2 cleaned because I don't use O2 (100%) so when I use the nitrox <40% from the LDS it is already blended in my O2 clean tanks. Clear as mud isn't it?
Contamination is presumed by the standards, if it actually happens is another matter. The lubes and o rings are part of the O2 cleaning, not introducing anything but O2 clean gas into the system is the way O2 clean is maintained.
Hope it helps.
 
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Remy B.

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Thanks for the explanation After Dark, it seems that the O2 clean "in the case of the regulators" is overrated, if you purge that small section of compartments from the 1st stage all the way to the 2nd stage with High O2, I can't see where the danger is, you need an ignition source to complete the triangle of fire, I don't believe that will be in a that small amount of area between the 1st and 2nd stage the moment you attach the regulator to the bottle and purged at the surface where you have a very low volume static in the regulator at ambient pressure and you supply a much bigger volume of High O2 at a higher pressure when you purged, not at that purging pressure at surface, there need to be present either a very High Pressure, Heat source or chemical reaction, honestly I don't see that happening in that small amount of volume of trapped air in your regulator system when you attached to a 100% O2 bottle, there is no High pressure enough at surface, there is not heat source inside the regulator system, your Regulator have O2 compatible seals and lubricants, and your Air source is oxygen clean as you are connecting it to a O2 bottle as Deco gas.

If I'm missing something, please share.
 

Peter69_56

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You have all parts of the triangle for fire. High O2, fuel (rubber) or perhaps Nitrile O rings, and then a pinch point or a restriction which by the laws of gas creates heat.

Thus you can have all three. The higher the pressure, the higher the risk.

Now introduce some "standard" scuba air from a LDS compressor which is NOT Nx quality air. It may be that the filter is at end of life, or the compressor is introducing oil into the air steam. Because the air is only single filtered it gets past the system into your tank, and thus into your regulator system. Now on your next tank fill you decide to use it as a deco tank and perhaps want say 50 or 100% Nx. First problem is you take it to a LDS who has to use partial pressure method for filling. They introduce 100% oxygen into the tank. You put the fill guy at risk.

Now if you get past that, then the bigger danger being the first stage reg as you use it. You have high pressure, oil contaminant and heat from the regulator HP seat. Now you have a fire, which cannot be extinguished until the tank is totally empty.

Thirdly you have the LP system, although less risk, the potential is there with high levels of O2 to burn, once the fire starts it will dump the tank in 2 minutes. All that oxygen coming out feeding a rubber/metal fire.

The real question is how much high pressure is enough? Put into another light, how many times can I run across train tracks with a train near and not get hit? Possibly many times, however if you do get hit, its real bad Kama. Best not to run across in the first place, reduce the risk.

I clean and fill all my own tanks, air and O2. Clean all my regs for O2 use. I am particular, more so with the tanks and 1st stage regs. Thus minimise the risks. I could use standard rubber hose from the O2 bottle to the tanks but I don't. I could use mild steel valves, but I don't. Thus minimising the risk. That doesn't mean I wont have an O2 fire, just that if I do everything to the standard, the RISK is much less.

If you wish to use regs for all purposes whether the air is clean or not, that's your choice. However if you do get burnt and are sitting there in hospital with 3rd degree burns, and your face looking like melted plastic, will you then think the few dollars saved was worth it all.

You have to put it into perspective. Why do you not dive to 200 metres, because the risk might be 1 in 2 that you die. Why do you happily dive to 20 metres, because the risk is probably now 1 in 10,000.

I look at it this way, If I attempt to do it 100% right and get 90% right I will probably be fine. If I don't really care and do it 40% right the risks go way up. My chances of failure are greater.
 
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Remy B.

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You have all parts of the triangle for fire. High O2, fuel (rubber) or perhaps Nitrile O rings, and then a pinch point or a restriction which by the laws of gas creates heat.
.

Peter I'm not sure if I'm following you, I'm talking about the regulator O2 clean, not the Tank, I understand that once your Tank is O2 clean, you can't used for air, or if you do you have to O2 clean it again to fill it with HIgh O2 again.

You don't have the triangle of fire, I'm talking about a regulator that has been prep, with the right Seals and Lubricants for high O2 application, and there is no heat source, a pinch point where compressed gas passes thru a lower pressure chamber/area actually have a cooling effect called the JT or John Thompson effect, the oxygen will not Chemically react with the rubber of the hose to my knowledge, and your break pressure on your regulator at surface I will guess is 1.5 to 2 Atmospheres or 21.5 to 29.2 Psi Absolute, so pressure does not come in factor here, you have two things missing in the triangle of fire in this case.

Remember you are connecting the O2 prep regulator that was used previously used with air to a Oxygen clean Tank ( High O2 Deco gas ) so your source that purges the regulator at surface is a clean source, yes you can had have dirty air going previously thru your regulator but it have to be very bad stuff, I'm not saying it is impossible but very unlikely, I guess you will be tasting it if you are diving that air.

Any how all the points and interventions are valid, I think I'm rather off the idea of converting my Titan's to O2 clean and saving that money and buy O2 purpose regulators.
 
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