Regulator Failure - Galapagos

[OMyMyOHellYes]

perhaps you should read the last sentence of my comment. we actually agree for the most part.

but in this particular case it was apparently the internal condition of the cylinder that was the problem. so to suggest that could possibly be anyones fault other than the dive operator would be pretty ridiculous.

using your example, i totally agree that doing all the pref light checks you were trained to do is obviously the responsibility of the pilot. but if you blow the engine during take off because the owner of the aircraft has not done any regular engine work for the last two years, is that your fault? i guess it doesn't matter cuz you'd be dead?

this is no different than a diver. they should do their pre dive checks just like they were taught. they should even do a more thorough examination of the gear if they are not familiar with it.

but there is no way an average recreational diver could know the internal condition of a cylinder. no way to know the past maintenance. no way to know the internal condition of the regs either, or their past maintenance. etc etc. the only ones who know for sure are the people doing that maintenance.

when we rent gear we assume (possibly to our detriment) that the shop follows standard accepted practices for maintaining gear and providing safe, clean gas.

to your other example of nitrox.....i would absolutely analize the gas so i know the O2 content. but do you know the CO content? if they give you poisoned gas, who's fault is that? again, i guess it may not matter cuz you may be dead.

An effective VIP moderates this risk... and the sticker, well, that is external and can be observed pre-dive. Specifically, one that describes the inspection and standards to which it was performed ("dive industry standards" has no meaning and anybody affixing one of those may as well be pasting a Snickers bar wrapper to the tank.) And in the case of a heavy-use commercial dive operation, a sticker showing inspection in the last three months should be expected.

Now if an operator buys some of them there AmazBay stickers and indiscriminately puts them on, then that's a HUGE intentional liability, a fraud liability, which they are perpetuating. And they would bear complete liability in case of a failure. IMO. Should, could, again IMO, bear criminal liability.

OMMOHY

 

[boulderjohn]

Now if an operator buys some of them there AmazBay stickers and indiscriminately puts them on, then that's a HUGE intentional liability, a fraud liability, which they are perpetuating. And they would bear complete liability in case of a failure. IMO. Should, could, again IMO, bear criminal liability.

You don't need to buy a generic sticker from Amazon or eBay. You can have your stickers custom printed to the name of your shop or operation. The local shop I use has their own very nice stickers, and I know they do the actual VIPs properly. There is nothing to prevent a large operation with a bunch of tanks from ordering equally nice VIP stickers and slapping them on as soon as the old one gets out of date. Even if they assign someone to do an actual VIP, there is no legal requirement for that person to be properly trained for it.

A few years ago I went into a shop where I was not known for some fills. The employee looked at the cylinders and saw an inspection sticker he did not recognize and was immediately suspicious. "Who inspected this?" he asked accusingly. "I did," I said. "I just did it this morning." He looked a little unsure as to what he would do next, and I said, "That's a PSI/PCI inspection sticker, and that number on the side is my official PSI/PCI inspector number." He had no idea what PSI/PCI meant, but he finally decided he would fill them anyway. If the sticker had read "Joe's Scuba Shop, Armpit, Illinois," he would have filled it without a question.

 

[boulderjohn]

As for shaking the tank to see if the dip tube is loose, the former owner of a major dive agency did not put dip tubes in his tanks so he would not have to deal with that annoying rattle when they come loose.

 

[Subcooled]

Turns out the first stage completely filled with tank debris

Tank debris??? Rust, you mean?

I have been using my tanks for 11 years now and from the inside they are in mint condition.

Tank debris might be a sign of either
#1 regularly filling tanks without purging the cylinder valve first (salt water ingress), or
#2 out of air divers and salt water actually entering their tank and the tank not properly cleaned after such an event, or
#3 a bady maintained compressor without proper filtering of intake air

blocking off the air supply from the tank. The diver had an "out of air" emergency and did an air share with the DM. He's fine.

It's great news he is fine.

"But what about the dip tube?"

...if it's still there...

Especially if a dive op has been hurting financially and feel they can't afford the expense right now.

It really does not cost much to open the cylinder and to look inside.

I would caution everyone to be vigilant and at least check the inspection dates on tanks

Good advice.

 

[Subcooled]

As for shaking the tank to see if the dip tube is loose, the former owner of a major dive agency did not put dip tubes in his tanks so he would not have to deal with that annoying rattle when they come loose.

That's almost criminal negligence.

 

[Scared Silly]

An effective VIP moderates this risk... and the sticker, well, that is external and can be observed pre-dive. ... And in the case of a heavy-use commercial dive operation, a sticker showing inspection in the last three months should be expected.

In my experience, dive ops do not put stickers on cylinders. They will do mass inspections on a schedule. In fact, I am not sure I have ever seen a VIP sticker on a live-a-board or some where like Bonaire. YMMV

 

[UWDawgDiver]

I had a 2nd stage fail at about 40' in Hawaii back in the 90's when our rental gear did not come with an Octo. The DM and group was swimming against strong current and I was already behind because I wasn't in the greatest of shape. Luckily the regulator started breathing again as I headed to the surface. The DM instructed me to finish the dive at 30' while the rest of the group was at 60' I was too much of a novice to object during the dive or afterwords.

We now have our own gear but how can we as divers ensure the tanks that we rent are in good shape and have good air? Can we ask the shop for their inspection records? Should they all have routine inspection tags at some frequency? Should I carry an O2 meter? What practically can vacation divers like us do to protect ourselves?

 

[rick00001967]

how can we as divers ensure the tanks that we rent are in good shape and have good air? Can we ask the shop for their inspection records? Should they all have routine inspection tags at some frequency? Should I carry an O2 meter? What practically can vacation divers like us do to protect ourselves?

great questions. this will probably never happen but we need strong laws in every country that govern the care and use of breathing gases and cylinders etc. followed by strict punishments and enforcement.

but unfortunately, the best we can do is stick with our trusted dive ops and stay away from the ones we hear horror stories about.

asking the op what their maintenance procedures are certainly can't hurt, but do you trust their answers? maybe even asking to see the compressor room? is it filthy? do they have a CO monitor on the sytem? do they have a log showing when the filters where replaced and when the compressor was serviced?

when we choose to dive we are trusting the supplier of the cylinder and the gas are providing us with the safest possible service. i think for the vast majority, that is what we get. but when we hear stories like this it sure makes you wonder what goes on behind the scenes that we will never know about.

 

[DiveProKoko]

Man, I'm just glade the individual is still here with us. If it was me god, and my wife, only knows what I would've done!

I hear ya. I'm a pretty mellow guy, but if you almost kill me....yeah, I might do something. LOL

 

[DiveProKoko]

I had a 2nd stage fail at about 40' in Hawaii back in the 90's when our rental gear did not come with an Octo..... Luckily the regulator started breathing again...The DM instructed me to finish the dive at 30' while the rest of the group was at 60'.... how can we as divers ensure the tanks that we rent are in good shape and have good air? Can we ask the shop for their inspection records? Should they all have routine inspection tags at some frequency? Should I carry an O2 meter? What practically can vacation divers like us do to protect ourselves?

Yikes on the first part. If I were leading that dive, I would have ended the dive (at least for you) and if my divers wanted their money back, I would refer them to the operator with the message, "If you don't want to issue refunds, make sure your gear is in good order."

On the second part, there are a few ways to check if operators are inspecting their tanks. But, you'll only know if they mark them. Industry standard is a yearly visual and law is a hydro test every 5 years. The visual is recorded via a sticker, and the hydro date is stamped into the tank. As some have mentioned, many operators don't put the stickers on their tanks. Tank debris caused failures very rare, but they happen. In lieu of the sticker, the next best thing to look at is the operators other equipment. Is the rental gear trashed? Are the boats dirty? Is the shop dirty? Slack in one area usually permeates into other areas. Here are a couple of articles and photos to help you out. The top photo shows a tank with visual sticker and hydro stamps. The second is a valve with dip tube. Happy diving!

Inspection and Testing for Your SCUBA Tanks: Visual Cylinder Inspection - AquaViews Inspecting and


Testing for Your SCUBA Tanks: Hydrostatic Tank Test - AquaViews