Reg setups: a Philosophy Question

[Walter]

except that now you are buddy breathing off one regulator AND managing your BC inflation orally

lots of task-loading to add to a situation

Nay, nay, bunny wabbit. There is rarely a valid reason to add air to your BC when bringing an OOA diver to the surface. You need to dump air as you ascend with your right shoulder dump, which if you have an Air II, you should be using all the time anyway. In those extremely rare situations where you do need to add air to your BC, the LPI still works, there's no need to add air orally. There's no task loading with an Air II OOA ascent. I know, I've made several and I'm not talking about drills.

 

[munitor]

Looking forward to reading more of it, but at first glance, it appears diving is in FACT quite safe!

Hoa!

That might be at first glance, but when you compare scuba to other sports, its pretty dangerous. Roughly same injury rate as downhill skiing, but a fatal accident rate per hour of participation (FAR/MH) that is 10 times as high. There aren't many other sports more deadly per hour of participation. Compared to industry all these are very, very bad. Coal miners have an FAR/MH of about 0.05, so scuba is about 40 times more dangerous than coal mining.

On the other hand, riding a motorcycle on the street has the same FAR/MH as mountaineering, both of which are about 4.5 times worse than scuba! After that there is only skydiving, with an FAR/MH of....

130!

That's 65 times worse than scuba! No wonder you can't get life insurance if you skydive.

 

[H2Andy]

Nay, nay, bunny wabbit. There is rarely a valid reason to add air to your BC when bringing an OOA diver to the surface. You need to dump air as you ascend with your right shoulder dump, which if you have an Air II, you should be using all the time anyway. In those extremely rare situations where you do need to add air to your BC, the LPI still works, there's no need to add air orally. There's no task loading with an Air II OOA ascent. I know, I've made several and I'm not talking about drills.

Walter, let's get on the same page first

scenario is, your inflator hose has failed, taking with it your AIR II and your buddy is OOA

now you have to buddy breathe off your only second stage, rigth?

also, you may need to add air to your BC if, for example, while holding a stop, you let out too much air from it and start to get really negative ... could happen, right?
especially if you're nervous, stressed, etc.

all i am saying is that instead of having one failure (the inflator hose) create two problems (buddy breathing necessary and oral inflation necessary), it is much easier on you to have the inflator hose create only one problem if it goes (inflation). likewise, if the octo goes, it only creates one problem (buddy breathing).


one less thing to manage = less stress

 

[H2Andy]

That might be at first glance, but when you compare scuba to other sports, its pretty dangerous. Roughly same injury rate as downhill skiing, but a fatal accident rate per hour of participation (FAR/MH) that is 10 times as high. There aren't many other sports more deadly per hour of participation. Compared to industry all these are very, very bad. Coal miners have an FAR/MH of about 0.05, so scuba is about 40 times more dangerous than coal mining.

On the other hand, riding a motorcycle on the street has the same FAR/MH as mountaineering, both of which are about 4.5 times worse than scuba! After that there is only skydiving, with an FAR/MH of....

130!

That's 65 times worse than scuba! No wonder you can't get life insurance if you skydive.

crap ...we just had this list up on some thread here

yeah, skydiving was the highest, and scuba was among the top five, which include
(not in this order)

skydiving
general aviation pilot
scuba diving
motorcyle riding

and i think snow sports?

but doesn't driving have a much greater danger than scuba, something like 2.2 in 10,000?

 

[daniel f aleman]

but doesn't driving have a much greater danger than scuba, something like 2.2 in 10,000?

Driving accidents (fatalities) have so many mitigating factors: youth, fatigue, DUI, elderly, weather, specific problematic high-traffic streets, etc. I would suggest that the average 40 year-old healthy man driving a pickup or a 40-year-old wife driving an SUV have fewer accidents as compared to other driver age groups.

Same in diving, the risk factor is mitgated by so mch as well. The cave diver fatality rate versus that of vacation divers looking at the fishies at 45 feet in the Bahamas...

 

[charlesml3]

yes, you did make something up in a post, probably because you didn't read closely or carefuly enough before responding.

Fine, I misunderstood the original post. What is it about Internet Forums that makes people believe it's OK behave with such poor manners? If the 8 or so of us had been standing around a LDS having this very discussion, I doubt very seriously you would turn to me and say "You're making that up." It's accusatory, inflamatory and guaranteed to make you look like a huge jerk.

have you ever tried an OOA with a seven-foot hose?

No, I haven't. I've done dozens of OOA drills with my AIRII and primary without any issue whatsoever. I'm not going to fix something that isn't broken.

scenario is, your inflator hose has failed, taking with it your AIR II and your buddy is OOA

Seriously here, what are the odds of this? He has an OOA situation, you have an inflator hose fail at the same time. C'mon. How often do hoses really fail? You're much more likely to have a 2nd stage failure and an AIRII is no more likely to fail than a "real" octopus. Even if I give you this I still cannot see how this is "task loading." You have to get to the surface. Grip each other's BC, make eye contact and buddy breath your primary. Watch your ascent rate, do a safety stop if the available air supply allows for it. It's easy, man.

There is no inflation on an ascent. We can't add that in as a task here and claim it's "task loading."

-Charles

 

[H2Andy]

I doubt very seriously you would turn to me and say "You're making that up." It's accusatory, inflamatory and guaranteed to make you look like a huge jerk.

i would say it with a smile, of course. you were making it up, though...

and i'm not the one calling you names

I've done dozens of OOA drills with my AIRII and primary without any issue whatsoever. I'm not going to fix something that isn't broken.

my point is that you have no idea how much easier it can be.

nothing about anything being broken.

just that there's an easier way which you are shooting down without even having tried it

Seriously here, what are the odds of this? He has an OOA situation, you have an inflator hose fail at the same time. C'mon. How often do hoses really fail?

well, duh ...

but that wasn't the point i was addressing, was it?

of course the odds are remote

i'm just saying what is easier. that's all.

if it does happen (remote as the odds may be), it will be easier to do with an 7 foot hose

There is no inflation on an ascent. We can't add that in as a task here and claim it's "task loading."

as i explained to Walter a few posts back, if you need to hold a safety stop or slow down your ascent for some reason, you may let out too much air (given the stress of the situation)

in which case you would be too negative

in which case you'd have to add air

never say never

 

[Dive-aholic]

Interesting discussion. Let me disclose that I'm not an AirII fan. I've seen situations where they just don't work well, but I will admit that in most situations they're just fine. But the majority of my diving doesn't fit those situations.

You guys are arguing the AirII v. long hose it's from 2 different perspectives. Andy dives caves. You will never see an AirII in a cave (otherwise you'll look like a dork... sorry couldn't resist that from the SoCal forum). AirIIs just aren't practical in that environment. The long hose is the standard and that's what we use. We need to be able to swim through restrictions single file. We need to be able to add air to our wings as our depth is forced to be changed due to the rock over our heads. We need to be able to finish our deco. We need to be able to remain horizontal during all this. Wings don't have shoulder dumps, so dumping air on ascent has to be done through the butt dump or the LP hose.

An AirII works fine in OW, but it just doesn't make sense in an overhead. And personally, I dive the same setup in all environments. I may dive single tank in OW, but it's still with a long hose because that's what I've trained my muscles to do.

 

[Vie]

First it was "APEX." Now it's "Air II" ?? People, it's always been AIR 2...

http://www.scubapro.com/prod/erog/erogatori/air2/air2octo.htm

 

[charlesml3]

Thank you, Dive-aholic for a completely lucid, unemotional, and reasonable response to this. Something this thread has been sorely lacking.

Given that type of diving, I would agree with you completely. No AIRII, long hose on the Octopus.

-Charles