references or explainations for the common man

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merkin

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Hi, I searched the archives and couldn't find the information about either of these things... could someone please provide me with a simple introduction and references for further reading about 1) deep stops and 2) the RGBM?

Thanks.
 
merkin once bubbled...
Hi, I searched the archives and couldn't find the information about either of these things... could someone please provide me with a simple introduction and references for further reading about 1) deep stops and 2) the RGBM?

Thanks.
You can get good info by searching around the Internet for some of the papers that Erik Baker wrote, such as "Deep Stops Explained". Baker is pretty intense to read...he gets technical real fast and can go right over your head if you aren't careful. For a less exacting explanation of deep stops, Richard Pyle has written at least one or two papers on the subject. However, "Pyle Stops" as they are sometimes called, are less exacting and don't seem to be as efficient as the methods described by Wienke, Baker, Irvine, etc.

http://www.cisatlantic.com/trimix/pile/deepstops.html
 
Thanks for the Pyle paper - that should be a good start.

I read the RGBM paper suggested, but it went past me real fast - a few conceptual assumptions were missing for me, then it could become palatable.

Is this right - 2 phases of nitrogen to minimize/eliminate - bubbles and nitrogen dissolved in tissue - Haldane method only accounts for one (dissolved gas?). I read an article by Irvine on the web that seemed to be alluding that the different phases dominate at different depths.

Anyway, I guess it's obvious I'm still confused! Any other RGBM introductions?

Edit - I read the Pyle paper and deep stops is beginning to make sense - are there any other sources anyone knows of where I could get some of those references without paying for back-issues and/or interlibrary loans?
 
Please, try my site. It is http://www.deepocean.net. Tag 'science'. Though I present some math, I hope you understand the stuff about VPM and why deep stops are sensible. RGBM is an extention to VPM. Though I read some Wienke articles, I am left with a lot of questions about it :question:. Apparently commercial concerns play a role not revealing the entire RGBM....:devious:

One day I hope to be able to finish my page on this RGBM stuff....:winkbl:

Give me feedback if my site fullfills your needs :hmmm:.
 
ScubaJorgen once bubbled...
Though I read some Wienke articles, I am left with a lot of questions about it :question:.

Well, every so often a little birdy shows up here to answer some of the RGBM questions. You could even say that little birdy 'wrote the book'. :wink:
 
Dear Readers:

Phase Transitions

Depending on what you want to know, I can offer a few words of a qualitative nature. If you already knew this, then I am sorry that I did not contribute much. Here goes.

In the Haldane model of decompression sickness, inert gas was always in the dissolved state. If the “metastable limit” were reached, bubbles would form. This “limit” was a concept taken (apparently) from the physical chemistry of the day that indicated that supersaturated solutions could exist for long periods of time. If the supersaturations were mild, very long times without two phases forming (e.g., solution and bubbles or solutions and crystals).

This question was studied because “fractional crystallization” was a method employed to purify and separated slats in industrial settings. The problem with this was that extraneous crystals or dust motes would upset the balance and allow crystal formation when it was unwanted. In the case of solutions of gases, small microbubbles could cause frank bubble formation.

Haldane Method

The problem with the Haldane theory is that it is known that fluids contain microbubbles. They are virtually impossible to remove from a fluid. Fluids that are in motion contain more nuclei than those that are at rest. This is an idea that dates back to Edmund Newton Harvey in the 1940s. The concept is referred to as stress-assisted nucleation.

RGBM

The models of Yount and Wienke incorporate bubble nuclei without specifying their origin. It is not really necessary to know where the nuclei arise or by what method. The problem is that they control decompression bubble formation. The link between the Haldane model and the gas micronuclei model is the equation relating surface tension and bubble radii (the Laplace equation). Because of surface tension, small bubbles are difficult to grow unless the supersaturation is large.

One arrives are large supersaturations during the initial ascent to the first stop in the Haldane scheme. You then carry these bubbles along throughout the decompression and the decompression becomes very long. This is sometimes referred to as “bend and mend” tables. Reducing the magnitude of the first stop will prevent the growth of these micronuclei. Deep stops are the way to do this; hydrostatic compression is another. The fist is possible but the second is not (with air breathing creatures).

Deep Stops

Deep stops are incorporated into certain tables. The stop depths and times have been calculated from analysis of diving data and determing the dive outcome. With deeper stops, divers report successful decompression with less decompression time (an idea of Brian Hills in 1986). In addition, divers report a subjective feeling of being less lethargic.

There is little doubt that the tables work. What is unclear is, do they work for the reasons given? In the absence of a laboratory study, it is difficult to say.

Dr Deco :doctor:
 
Yo, on deep stops and RGBM.

The last few issues of Advanced Diver magazine have much
info in the articles -- Deep Stops, Deep Helium, Past issues
have layman info on RGBM. Next issue will have feature
article on Deep RGBM -- model, underpinnings, software,
testing, tables etc.

A new book from Best Publishing called Reduced Gradient
Bubble Model and Applications will have it all. The
recently released book Technical Diving In Depth also
has much on both, with math equations and prose

Go to the RGBM website (http://RGBMdiving.com) for downloadable
papers on deep stops and RGBM.

Hope this helps a little.

Regards,

BW:)
 
Spectre once bubbled...


Well, every so often a little birdy shows up here to answer some of the RGBM questions. You could even say that little birdy 'wrote the book'. :wink:

Look at that the birdy showed up.

Thanks BRW and Dr. Deco for your work and your input.

Chad
 
Is it possible to get RGBM dive tables?
- although I'm probably going to end up buying a computer with an RGBM-like model I'd be interested in comparing the square profiles of different dive tables.

Do tables come in various P-values? (quasi-scientific ? I know!)
I realize it's not that simple, but maybe just conceptually thinking, what are the P-values on the RDP, etc if the outcome is bent or not? Given DAN's statistics ~ 10-5?
 

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