Redundancy Required for Decompression Diving?

[RainPilot]

John, are you saying that 'not anyone' can learn that basic skill? I think anyone can learn that.

I'm not discussing this any further because the SB moderation is again just deleting the answers they don't like.
I'd be happy to discuss stuff like this honestly, but it's not possible. You, John have asked me to name agengies, well knowing that if I do so, the post gets deleted.

I guess there's a difference between saying that members of an agency are "completey delusional scientology material" (sic) and stating "FLDA allows a 2 day course to become a SM instructor".

I know one makes me feel attacked and one makes me go "huh, thats odd. let me check some more".

 

[Patoux01]

So there is nothing in diving that cannot be derived via common sense? ICD? Which way to route hoses? How to do a proper weight check? How to reach your valves? The order to close your valves? The best mix for your shallow bailout? The best mix for your deep bailout?

I think I go on courses fairly clued up. I always learn something new and surprising.

Also the books and even course manuals leave a lot out. For example what ppO2 to use for the deep bailout. 1.6? 1.4? 1.2? The manual might discuss the pros and cons of each but the instructor will have a value that he uses and a reason why. There can be many common sense arguments for each, but one that is best in your circumstances. Talking to a proper and responsible expert is how you get detail like this.

*** disclaimer: This will hurt the feelings of people that think you need an instructor to learn how to continue diving ***

[rant]
I'll bite, but just because I'm really bored, and tired of the "muh pay to train or die" spirit that's coming up here...

I said it's common sense to figure out what makes sense in an argument you'll find online and what does not. So let's discuss, and answer your questions, simply for the sake of it, even if it's not what I was talking about.

ICD? How many cases of that are there? I'm too bored to go look it up in deco for divers, my bet is that there's enough info in there for anyone to make his mind up about "Can I swich from normoxic trimix to Nx32" (which funnily is almost the first google hit on "deco for divers ICD", and points to a rather funny thread about ICD on a 45m dive)
Which way to route hoses? Which one do you want? Hog? Type in google: "Hogarthian hose routing", probably one of the first 3 links will do that for you, with an explanation. Oh, btw, Hog is not the only way of doing it. If you have a look at the guys in the French lakes, they do things differently.
A proper weight check? Really? You want to be neutral at the end of the dive, that's gonna be seriously difficult, "scuba weight check" absolutely gives NOTHING that makes sense on Google here, damn, you got me.
How to reach the valves? Well, there's at least a dozen threads on google that are gonna show up.
The order? You mean GUE V-drill, some other fancy thing, something invented by some other guys that prefered doing it that way, or finally the "turn all the valves you can get approach" that is often taught?
Best mix? Is it that complicated? Easy way out: grab standard gases, boom! No more worries about "Should I get 31 or 32% of Helium? What if the blender gets the O2 wrong by 1% and I have to make a whole scene because now I'll dive a pO2 of 1.42 and I really can't do that?!"


But I guess, since the instructor "uses a value and why" is sufficient to say that the manual is useless and that it is worth nothing ?

[/rant]

 

[stuartv]

My point was that from training and reading, it seems universal to get back on the boat with 500 PSI or more, to leave a reserve, but these two tech divers who brought pony bottles for redundancy drained their main tanks below what they should have, if the pony bottle was truly for redundancy, and they should have, IMO, ended the dive a couple minutes earlier to get back on the boat with 500+, pony bottle or not.

500psi in an AL80 is about 13 cu-ft of air. If those guys got back on the boat still carrying more than 13 cu-ft of air, what's the problem?

There's nothing magic about the number 500.

 

[Bennno]

a 2 day course to become a SM instructor"

1 and 2 day SM instructors course ARE A MATTER OF FACT. It's just the type of fact that's not allowed to be mentioned on scubaboard.

 

[RainPilot]

Thats the 3rd or 4th time you've said that, hasn't been deleted.

 

[cerich]

His comment meant that a sidemount instructor does not have to have any particular skills since it only takes 1-2 days to become an instructor. Sure it only takes that long if you show up at the instructor development class with the skills you learned previously during the required experience dives. That is like saying that it only becomes a couple days to become an OW instructor because that is how long the instructor exam takes. In talking about how long that takes, you usually include the couple weeks of intense training in the instructor Development Class.

Please.. it take having taken a diver SM class..then doing the required # of dives and submitting paperwork. The path to being one if you are already a OW Instructor and NOT a SM diver is a day or two.

In fact in researching this post I called Padi Training.. if a new OWSI wants to be a SM instructor by method 1 and they do NOT have a SM card they need to do the diver SM course (3 dives OW and 1 CW dive) and the Instructor class with a CD. That instructor course involves classroom, two presentations, one OW SM dive with a brief and debrief. This can be done in 2 days. Busy but within standards and you have a new recreational SM instructor with 4 SM dives having been completed.

Method 2 involves being a MSDT and having the diver level SM card or 50 dives in SM with no card, sending in the paperwork and paying the fee.

 

[Bennno]

Thats the 3rd or 4th time you've said that, hasn't been deleted.

The other once I can't mention because people like you can't argue on even ground so you asked to have stuff deleted. (I bet you report a lot and that what the mods like). It's always the people who don't have anything to say or anything to add that are in favor of deleting stuff. It's the Sb schtick.

 

[stuartv]

*** disclaimer: This will hurt the feelings of people that think you need an instructor to learn how to continue diving ***

[rant]
I'll bite, but just because I'm really bored, and tired of the "muh pay to train or die" spirit that's coming up here...

I said it's common sense to figure out what makes sense in an argument you'll find online and what does not. So let's discuss, and answer your questions, simply for the sake of it, even if it's not what I was talking about.

I don't believe in doing Trust Me dives.

Therefore, when I learn to do something related to diving, I don't just do it the way the instructor said, simply because the instructor said so. Instead, I ask questions - if necessary - to understand why something is done a certain way. Then I decide for myself if I feel like what I'm about to do is safe.

So, at the end of the day, whether I dive a certain set of mixes is based on MY evaluation of the risk of ICD (for example) - not my instructor's. And if I'm making my own decision on that, why would anyone think that a formal class with a certified instructor is the only way to get the necessary information, instead of, for example, reading the information in a book from an expert like Mark Powell or Steve Lewis or NOAA or the US Navy or whatever source of information I use that's relevant to the decision I'm making.

In the end, it's ME evaluating the source for credibility, whether it's a certified instructor, in person, or a book or any other source of information. And I am dang sure more likely to trust a credible text over "some guy with an instructor C card."

The notion that the ONLY way for anyone to learn to dive is by training with a certified instructor is just silly. Nowadays there are TONS of good sources of information on how to do pretty much anything related to diving. And vetting the source is incumbent on the person who wants to learn, no matter what the source is (including a certified instructor). And it's probably a lot easier to vet almost any book, website, or video, over 95% of all instructors.

Maybe even easier than ANY certified instructor. Take John Chatterton, for example. Some people would say he's one of the foremost authorities on advanced wreck diving, so training with him would be unimpeachable. Other people that his methods are not at all best practices. So, how is a student to decide whether he would be a good choice for an advanced wreck instructor? The same way we people who want to learn have to make all our other choices in scuba: Use our own best judgment. If I can be trusted to learn to dive by selecting my own instructor, why can I suddenly not be trusted if I choose a book for my instruction? Are you assuming that I would do due diligence in choosing a person as an instructor, but I would not do due diligence in choosing a book?

 

[RainPilot]

The other once I can't mention because people like you can't argue on even ground so you asked to have stuff deleted. (I bet you report a lot and that what the mods like). It's always the people who don't have anything to say or anything to add that are in favor of deleting stuff. It's the Sb schtick.

FWIW I have never reported any of your posts. The one where you referred to UTD members as "completey delusional scientology material" I found rather disrespectful but I can handle my own fights.

 

[boulderjohn]

John, are you saying that 'not anyone' can learn that basic skill? I think anyone can learn that.

You said they already had that skill, not that they can learn it.