Redundancy Required for Decompression Diving?

[RainPilot]

Hahahahahahaha... nobody, at UTD maybe. That thing has been beaten to death countless times rightfully so and not only by SM divers but also by DIR divers.


My statement is alsolutely true and every honest instructor (who actually knows the industry for more than a couple of years) will tell you that. You might not be aware of this because you're a new instructor??

Let's hear it you guys, what skills are required of instructors that can't be done or are difficult to achive by a normal competent diver???? Instructor is a PAY-LEVEL not a skill level.


Oh, right, the minumum dives are quite the hurdle... what are they? In average 30 dives for the level or specialty you wanna teach at?

Riddle my this: Here are a tec IT and his buddy diving the BH. How is that possible?

Seriously, how is this possible?

Stuff like this I have seem with my own eye MANY times over the last 20 years done by instructors! I've also seen people kneel down to tigh off their reel in a cave... and I have tons of examples!
IF you guys think, you're great divers, because you got an instructor cert you're incredibly naiive.

I never said every instructor sucks, I myself have been an instructor for 14 years. The point I was making is that the cert/instructor training means NOTHING, anyone can get it, really anyone.

Fun fact: In thailand, some PADI shops used to sell ITC/IE packages with a garanteed pass.

I do consider myself a new instructor as I have only been doing it for over a decade now. Also, the Z-system has not been "beaten to death". There are those who disagree with it and those who agree with it. Unlike you, when I see an argument online I dont automagically filter out all opposing views. I am aware of the argument and I dont believe it will ever be settled, one way or the other.

Instead, thinking minds will evaluate the discussion, make a decision that takes into account their own diving and move on.

Back to the original post:

I personally believe there should be redundant gas supplies when a ceiling is imposed. AFAIK all agencies teach the same wrt their own courses.

What people do outside of training is their own business but I believe that most agencies / insurance companies would frown heavily on any member that dived outside of the training norms. Whether that makes a difference is up to you. Personally, I dont train anything I dont believe to be correct and necessary. Thus, i dive the way i train my students.

Can that redundant gas supply be that carried by a buddy? Sure there is a corner of the envelope where a "light" deco obligation and a good team with proper rock bottom gas planning should be able to make do with their backgas only, but why? I for sure wouldn't do it unplanned and thus no reason not to sling a 40 for the wife and kids.

That being said, Im also a guy who slings a bailout when I dive CCR regardless of depth or duration. I have no desire to lie in the ambulance thinking "man, i wish i'd taken along that tank...."

 

[Bennno]

His comment meant that a sidemount instructor does not have to have any particular skills since it only takes 1-2 days to become an instructor. Sure it only takes that long if you show up at the instructor development class with the skills you learned previously during the required experience dives. That is like saying that it only becomes a couple days to become an OW instructor because that is how long the instructor exam takes. In talking about how long that takes, you usually include the couple weeks of intense training in the instructor Development Class.

Seriously, what skills? How come there are so many SM instructors that can't even rig their tanks properly?

 

[KenGordon]

Common sense. I'll give in, it's not that common these days, but really, there's nothing complicated...

So there is nothing in diving that cannot be derived via common sense? ICD? Which way to route hoses? How to do a proper weight check? How to reach your valves? The order to close your valves? The best mix for your shallow bailout? The best mix for your deep bailout?

I think I go on courses fairly clued up. I always learn something new and surprising.

Also the books and even course manuals leave a lot out. For example what ppO2 to use for the deep bailout. 1.6? 1.4? 1.2? The manual might discuss the pros and cons of each but the instructor will have a value that he uses and a reason why. There can be many common sense arguments for each, but one that is best in your circumstances. Talking to a proper and responsible expert is how you get detail like this.

 

[Bennno]

Now, I am curious. Where / how does someone become a SM instructor in 1 day? Maybe, I am misunderstanding the context of these statements.

Generally how it works with most agencies is, you send a copy or some log book pages to the IT/IC. Than, in the course you go through the course material and do a few dives were you show basic skills... sometimes with specialty courses (and if you know the IT) is less than that. It's really hard to fail something like that, it's almost impossible... and they don't want you to fail... the agencies want more instructors and members, you are their customer.

 

[Bennno]

So there is nothing in diving that cannot be derived via common sense?

That's not what he said. You asked how you would know what BS and what not on the web.

 

[boulderjohn]

Are you saying you think that's difficult to learn? That's a intro to tec/fundi skill on stundent level.

Let's try to remember where this statement is coming from.

You said " Alsolutely anyone at any skill level can get any instructor rating with most agencies! There is virtually no skill level required." For that to be true, a beginning OW student would have to have the skills required of a technical diving instructor. I gave the example of a valve drill, which I said was a beginning technical diving skill. I refuting me, you said it is a beginning technical diving skill--the same thing I said. that does not contradict me one iota-it supports me.

So I repeat my question--can a beginning OW student do a valve drill with backmounted doubles in 45 students while holding depth and position? Yes, a beginning tech student can do it--are you saying that all new OW divers can do it? If so, then you are saying that all OW instructors are dong one Hell of a great job teaching buoyancy and trim.

 

[Bennno]

Wow, some post of mine was already deleted for 'agency bashing'. Not possible to have an honest discussion about anything here.

 

[RainPilot]

LOL, yes, there are those who disagree and there are UTD people that buy into AGs 'logic'. No cave/tec diver in their right mind would use that thing.

Anyone who disagrees with me must not be in their right mind. Ok, copied, I get where you are coming from. No Z-system for you then.

 

[Bennno]

John, are you saying that 'not anyone' can learn that basic skill? I think anyone can learn that.

I'm not discussing this any further because the SB moderation is again just deleting the answers they don't like.
I'd be happy to discuss stuff like this honestly, but it's not possible. You, John have asked me to name agengies, well knowing that if I do so, the post gets deleted.

 

[Bennno]

Anyone who disagrees with me must not be in their right mind. Ok, copied, I get where you are coming from. No Z-system for you then.

No, not me, buddy. People outside of UTD.