"Reducing PSD fatalities by 20%" and "Searching the 3rd Dimension"

[BladesRobinson]

So rather than add this piece of equipment, which may in rare cases be of benefit, but also may provide false sense of security - or more often, inappropriate release from the primary search line in black water - how about planning for and training for dealing with these entanglements?

Public Safety Diving fatalities are rare (thankfully).

We are recommending the Quick Release Snap Shackle because as you acknowledged above, there are cases where it is beneficial.

We do not believe that the Quick Release Snap Shackle provides a "false sense of security" and good training should prevent that "false sense."

We also STRONGLY support training ... and we support using Quick Release Snap Shackles (an inexpensive piece of equipment) as a "tool" for survival; the same way we may rely on knives, shears, pony bottles, etc.

Equipment is never a substitute for training ... I think we can ALL agree on that.

Thank you...

Blades Robinson

 

[bridgediver]

I am surprised you really believe the extra line increases PSD safety.

Take the case that you just brought up about the diver that forgot which way to go. That's only one reason of many in how it increases safety - I've mentioned other reasons already in this thread (ie - when the primary tether can't be freed you still have the SAFETY of both divers having contact with the surface when the backup reaches him)
Having free swimming PSD with the surface having little to no knowledge of where the diver is or what is happening is dangerous IMO.

I try hard to keep an open mind but when I've practiced similar scenarios (without the extra line), no one has ended up "hopelessly tangled" and the drill is faster and, I believe, more efficient. You mention that "all the tangles lead to the tenders," but the way I interpret your scenario, at least one of the tangles leads to the other diver.

I'm not sure you're picturing it right. Bear in mind that good line awareness needs to be in place, as it probably should be anyway. The only way that the divers can get the tethers crossed up is when they're together (or the tenders are doing a poor job of ensuring good tension/angles). Even novice divers can get this sorted out in a couple of dives - all they need is the proper line awareness.
When I say "hopelessly tangled" I'm talking about the first couple of times it is tried.
This method is no slower as the backup is already waiting with his own tether attached, fully geared up.

Some reasons why we like the second tether
- If the back up has to d/c from the primary tether for some reason now we don't really know where he is or what is going on. He could get himself trapped and we can't access the back up now.
- we can communicate with the back up. Without his own tether we can't do this.
- we know exacly where the entanglement is (line distance of 2nd line)
- like I already said, it may be easier to cut the first line to free the diver. Both divers can safely ascend while attached to the 2nd tether

 

[bridgediver]

The Quick Release Snap Shackle is the option of LAST resort. If we were to say the diver in distress had a 50/50 chance to survive(using the QRSS), isn't that better than ZERO?

Blades

I think this is the the main focus of the whole issue. What you think is "last resort" and what I think is last resort are different so I don't think its zero at all. If other methods and procedures are incorporated and practiced I'd say the chances are alot less than 50/50.

If there are any examples that proved these other methods NOT to work then I may see the value of the qrss. The way my guys are trained and equipped I don't see the need.

I will say this though. I cannot really say that the qrss is bad until I try them so I'm not ruling it out BUT if there's any way that they can be released by accident I would be reluctant to use them (this may be why they aren't suggested under ice?). I'll have to evaluate for myself.

 

[BladesRobinson]

... I cannot really say that the QRSS is bad until I try them so I'm not ruling it out BUT if there's any way that they can be released by accident I would be reluctant to use them (this may be why they aren't suggested under ice?). I'll have to evaluate for myself.

Mark,

Please know that the recommendation for a Quick Release Snap Shackle is NOT the recommendation of Blades Robinson. It is the recommendation of number of people who participate on the IADRS advisory board. I am just the messenger and I believe strongly in the recommendation.

The "pros" and "cons" have been debated by Public Safety Divers whom many hold in high regard and who have considerable experience. I understand your reluctance to change. I too was reluctant but after looking at the facts and reading through a number of scenarios where PSDs drowned, I came to the conclusion that these "smart people" were right.

The reason why QRSS are not recommended under ice is primarily because the diver will not reach safety if he disconnects from his search line.

The chance that the QRSS could be released accidentally is EXTREMELY minimal and this has NOT been an issue for the commercial diving or swiftwater rescue industry. One other thing to consider is I still hold on to a loop tied into my search line, passing it from left hand to right as I alternate turns during a sweep. By holding onto a loop (similar to what Gary does) I maintain orientation to the tender and clearly feel the line pull signals when given. IF the shackle were to somehow fail, I still have a hand hold onto the search line so the risk of your scenario is NILL.

In a huge majority of the cases, if the diver were to disconnect accidentally, he would only need to come to the surface. There are ZERO cases where PSDs were killed because they came detached from their search line.

In the case of an overhead environment, the diver will not reach the safety of the surface during an emergency. Additionally, in an overhead environment we want to eliminate the potential that the diver will accidentally or intentionally disconnect from the QRSS so for that reason, it is eliminated.

 

[bridgediver]

By holding onto a loop... .

We no longer use a loop for various reasons but thats beside the point

In a huge majority of the cases, if the diver were to disconnect accidentally, he would only need to come to the surface. There are ZERO cases where PSDs were killed because they came detached from their search line. .

I'm not a big stats guy but I'm fairly certain that there have been incidents where this has taken place. I'll have to get back to you on that...

Otherwise, its been a great discussion! You've persuded me enough to get one and try it out in the pool this winter.

take care

mark