Recreational Dive Light Manufacturers:Behind the Times

[CharlesFoster00]

There are many, many challenges to manufacturing LED lighting fixtures, of any type. Any company that wants to be viewed as a reputable dive light manufacturer will have to deal with all of the following issues.
1) Consistency. LED manufacture is a very difficult, inconsistent process. LED's which are manufactured to the 'same' spec are visually inspected, and placed in different 'bins'. This process is called 'binning', and the theory is that at the end of the day, you have LED's in each 'bin' that are roughly similar in color and output. Practical experience has shown major manufacturers that even within a 'bin' there can be considerable variation, requiring a certain number of the emitters to be discarded. For this reason, many fixture manufacturers will buy 'batches' of 'bins' and then discard the LED's that don't meet their specs. As you can imagine, for a company that values it's reputation, this whole process can get expensive.
2) Life. Many times the Life of LED's is described in tens of thousands of hours. 50,000 is a common number for non-scuba lighting fixtures. But let's think about that. First, the claim of 5 year, continuous burn time, is somewhat suspect if the LED has only been manufactured for a few months. I'm not saying that it won't happen, but how did they come to that number? Which brings us to our second, "life" issue. LED's don't really burn out, not like HID lights or Halogen. They just get dimmer over time. Even if the company tells you what the definition of 'life' is (let's say 50% of original output), what will the curve look like that brings you to that point. Will you lose 20% of your total lumens in the first thousand hours? No? How do you know? If you really want to geek out about this stuff, google the IES LM-79, and IES LM-80 protocols.
3) Performance. This issue is tied directly to 'life', and therefore has all of the complications listed above. Generally, the brighter (and higher power usage) LED's have shorter life. The issue is heat. Heat build up is death to an LED. This is good news for scuba, because as we all know, water can help to dissipate some of this heat. But of course, people leave their lights on above water. This has lead to the development of 'limiters' which reduce output as heat builds. So another good question is, does my light have a limiter? Who made the limiter?
4) End of life. Should your LED fail (due to heat, or unacceptable lumen degradation, or *ahem* water), what is the plan. Throw away the light? Is the LED board replaceable? If so, will the manufacturer stock LED's from the original bin as a reserve, for this contingency?

Whew. So if you made it through all of that (and I'm just scratching the surface), the point is this. There are lots of people out there selling LED lights (of all types). If you aren't that worried about consistency, or reliability, then go for it, and spend whatever money you think is worth it. But if you want those things, then you have to realize that they take time. Time to test. Time to engineer. They also take money. To buy whole bins, and be willing to throw away lots of 'subpar' LEDs.

This is why you might not be (and probably should not be) seeing the latest and greatest in LED technology built into dive lights.

 

[rjack321]

I have a UK SL4 and SL6. They both work fine. In fact, I took the LED modules out of the SL4s and put them in my cave backups (no switch just a rotating bezel).

As non-canister (not sure where a canister = tech) lights they are fine "recreational" lights.

For the record, I had a 10W HID canister light 2 yrs before I was a deco diver and 3 or 4 years before I was a cave diver.

 

[gcbryan]

I have a UK SL4 and SL6. They both work fine. In fact, I took the LED modules out of the SL4s and put them in my cave backups (no switch just a rotating bezel).

As non-canister (not sure where a canister = tech) lights they are fine "recreational" lights.

For the record, I had a 10W HID canister light 2 yrs before I was a deco diver and 3 or 4 years before I was a cave diver.

I'm sure they all work fine. The UK SKL eled is $75 online and puts out 38 lumens using 4 C Cells. I didn't say that the recreational US manufacturers made lights that wouldn't work. Maybe you could define "fine".

We're not really taking about expensive dive lights here. You don't need to go on the record. We get it that some people like cannister lights. That's just not the issue here.

The lights I compared and contrasted in my original post were not expensive cannister lights. I'm not sure why you would take exception with me considering that a $75 light using 4 big C cells and only putting out 38 lumens is not keeping up with the times?

 

[SNorman]

Well, regardless of the argument, it'll be a cold day in hell that I spend $400+ on a dive light.

 

[gcbryan]

There are many, many challenges to manufacturing LED lighting fixtures, of any type. Any company that wants to be viewed as a reputable dive light manufacturer will have to deal with all of the following issues.
1) Consistency. LED manufacture is a very difficult, inconsistent process. LED's which are manufactured to the 'same' spec are visually inspected, and placed in different 'bins'. This process is called 'binning', and the theory is that at the end of the day, you have LED's in each 'bin' that are roughly similar in color and output. Practical experience has shown major manufacturers that even within a 'bin' there can be considerable variation, requiring a certain number of the emitters to be discarded. For this reason, many fixture manufacturers will buy 'batches' of 'bins' and then discard the LED's that don't meet their specs. As you can imagine, for a company that values it's reputation, this whole process can get expensive.
2) Life. Many times the Life of LED's is described in tens of thousands of hours. 50,000 is a common number for non-scuba lighting fixtures. But let's think about that. First, the claim of 5 year, continuous burn time, is somewhat suspect if the LED has only been manufactured for a few months. I'm not saying that it won't happen, but how did they come to that number? Which brings us to our second, "life" issue. LED's don't really burn out, not like HID lights or Halogen. They just get dimmer over time. Even if the company tells you what the definition of 'life' is (let's say 50% of original output), what will the curve look like that brings you to that point. Will you lose 20% of your total lumens in the first thousand hours? No? How do you know? If you really want to geek out about this stuff, google the IES LM-79, and IES LM-80 protocols.
3) Performance. This issue is tied directly to 'life', and therefore has all of the complications listed above. Generally, the brighter (and higher power usage) LED's have shorter life. The issue is heat. Heat build up is death to an LED. This is good news for scuba, because as we all know, water can help to dissipate some of this heat. But of course, people leave their lights on above water. This has lead to the development of 'limiters' which reduce output as heat builds. So another good question is, does my light have a limiter? Who made the limiter?
4) End of life. Should your LED fail (due to heat, or unacceptable lumen degradation, or *ahem* water), what is the plan. Throw away the light? Is the LED board replaceable? If so, will the manufacturer stock LED's from the original bin as a reserve, for this contingency?

Whew. So if you made it through all of that (and I'm just scratching the surface), the point is this. There are lots of people out there selling LED lights (of all types). If you aren't that worried about consistency, or reliability, then go for it, and spend whatever money you think is worth it. But if you want those things, then you have to realize that they take time. Time to test. Time to engineer. They also take money. To buy whole bins, and be willing to throw away lots of 'subpar' LEDs.

This is why you might not be (and probably should not be) seeing the latest and greatest in LED technology built into dive lights.

Except that they are...just not here. They don't throw bins away they just use those in cheaper and less powerful or efficient lights. I can buy XR-E emitters and can pick the flux bin ...P4,Q5,R2 or whatever and the color bin white cool, white neutral, white warm. In some cases I may be able to pick the forward voltage bin.

Most of what you are saying is just jargon. I understand it but what has that got to do with what we are talking about. I can make a dive light, the Chinese can make a dive light, US manufacturers should be able to as well.

Why would you need to stock leds from the original bins. This would be necessary only if you have a multiple die light head. With a hand held you would typically have a single or a quad single die emitter.

The other issues just aren't really relevant to my point either. Yes you need drivers and you may use a thermistor or not. All these issues are just what is involved with making led dive lights. The manufacture of HID lights is even more complicated. The binning system makes absolute consistency hard but it's not expected for the most part in a dive light.

 

[Gombessa]

Well, regardless of the argument, it'll be a cold day in hell that I spend $400+ on a dive light.

I'm pretty sure I said exactly that when I first started diving, too!

 

[Codyjp]

Shouldn't this thread then be renamed to "The amazing virtues of the Cree light for recreational divers."

Again, if promoting the Cree light wasn't the point of this thread then what was it?

 

[Codyjp]

We were not actually discussing the 2,000 dollars flashlight. N

the title of the thread reads "Recreational Light Manufactures Behind the Times" The point I was trying to make is that there are plenty of quality lights that are by no means behind the times.

Now we might be coming to a disagreement however as to what one would refer to as a recreational light. I have not seen any formal definition of a 'recreational light' but if remote heads on handles qualifies as not recreational then I will digress and agree that the CREE light is pretty bad ass for the money.
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...ers-behind-times-post4880167.html#post4880167

 

[gcbryan]

The point was that there are options out there. There is this one light that has no name so I called it the Cree light since that's what's on it's side. The Cree die is probably in all or most of the led lights that are made here and elsewhere. I have another light that I paid $37 for that has a narrow focused beam and is a backup light that is rated at 160 lumens or so. It's no different than a Rat or Photon Torpedo or whatever.

It's not about one light. It's about the fact that there are several lights that are much better than what is currently being offered. It would be nice if more were offered here so we don't have to go thorough all this for a good dive light at a reasonable price.

I still don't understand why anyone could have any issue with anything in my post. If you don't care or already know everything in my post then don't read it. Otherwise maybe it's info you can use.

I've certainly read enough threads about how great a hands free light is and all of the reasons one must have it or one just can't effectively dive. Now I've pointed out that there are inexpensive lights that can be used hands free, some are focused, some are less so and are quite bright.

Now, for the most part, the same crowd pushing cannister lights for their essential hands free use are talking about how great a UK SL4 is?

Why are you even in this thread? You have no interest in the light or type of light in my original post and have mentioned that a Light Cannon is a silly over priced piece of crap...not sure how you come to that conclusion and now what is your issue? Are you worried that I'm selling some light that you know nothing about but are sure you don't like?

This isn't even a koolaid issue and still the usual suspects come out.

 

[Codyjp]

If your trying to promote cheaper lights, which I'm all for then site the source where you can get this super light instead of griping about the lack of innovation. I'm trying to sort out some new backups and from what I've read the Crees seem to work really well.

The only point I was trying to make is that there are manufactures of lights that are working on the cutting edge. Unfortunately though, advancements in technology don't come cheap to the consumer.

I think your reading way to deep into this. It isn't anything personal. It really isn't. The reason I cited the Light Canon as a POC is that I own a light that uses the same bulb and it is unreliable/unstable and as you cited it is very expensive to replace. The reason it is silly is that there are now, as you mentioned lots of good LED technology available.