Rebreathers, CCR & SCR Risks, vs. OC Scuba

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Rick Inman:
(EDIT: Was typing this before MPR's post appeared above, which better addresses the subject.)

Well, maybe I didn't phrase the question properly. This is all good stuff, about how to be a good rebreather buddy. But really, I'm interested in the difference in risks inherent in diving a rebreather over OC, and the difference in risks associated in diving SCR vs CCR. Seems like there are so many possible failure points in rebreather diving that the risks in diving them go way up for both the diver and his/her buddy.

The reason for the added risk is not so much added failure points (though there are many more on SCR/CCR) as it is failure MODES. If your OC gear breaks and stops delivering gas you won't be able to breathe. You'll notice immediately (!), grab your buddy's 2nd or your own redundant gas and ascend. If your SCR/CCR breaks, you'll probably be able to breathe (barring a total loop flood) but the mix won't be life-sustaining for long - the first symptom is usually unconsciousness or an oxtox convulsion. To avoid this you primarily need to (a) be diligent in monitoring your PO2, and (b) recognize that your PO2 monitors might themselves be broken.

Brian

20 hours on a new Sport KISS CCR and loving it, but getting it was the hardest decision I've made in my life.
 
Good questions Rick.
I dive my Drager as much as I can out side of class (unless it is a Drager class) and have found that in my mind SCR and CCR requires a lot of DISCIPLINE in the set up and use of and very through checks. I make sure that I have alot of time to set my unit up and am never rushed at all. If something is not right I use Drager #2 or dive OC
I will only dive with buddies who know my set up and know what my problems might be.
Why do I dive it....Lets see, how about being able to get within inches of a Bat Ray, taking photos with no bubbles and doing dives that average 80 feet for 50 minutes with no deco. Warm air and they are so quiet...all your hear is yourself.
 
I don't dive them but the logic says you can have cheaper dives with it! (crazy but true)

Since the loop is closed (or semy closed) you're not wasting all that precious (and expensive) gasses in your breathing mix...

Unfortunately it looks like it takes too much discipline and time (to prepare and later to maintain) to be worth my time (unless I start working underwater)
 
Red Vette:
I will only dive with buddies who know my set up and know what my problems might be.
Why do I dive it....Lets see, how about being able to get within inches of a Bat Ray, taking photos with no bubbles and doing dives that average 80 feet for 50 minutes with no deco. Warm air and they are so quiet...all your hear is yourself.


Well stated. With any RB your deco. obligations can be minimized vs. OC. On CCR - computer assisted dives requiring obligatory decompression gradients factors (Buhlmann) can be adjusted according to aggressive, or less-than-aggressive deco. preferences. This is a pretty neat, all inclusive function of some of these CCR's. With some semi-closed units like the Halcyon RB 80 you have to bring an oxygen bottle and plumb it in for those massive dives.

All in all there is nothing quite like sitting at the final deco stop and using on-board oxygen to deco. while the OC fellas are having to draw off an oxygen sling bottle in a massive current while futzing around to put away the regs on their deeper stage bottles.
 
Rick Inman:
I know very little about rebreathers, but I buddy with one guy who dives a SCR and another who dives a CCR. I know enough to be an OK buddy, I guess - the symptoms of O2tox and hypoxia, how to read the buddy computer on the SCR, how to do a bubble check, etc. I've done air share drills with both of them. One guy likes to do a few mins at 10' before descending and the other likes to breath off his at the trucks for a while. No problem.

Here's my question. Are there greater risks using a rebreather vs. OC scuba? How about SCR vs. CCR? Both of the rebreathers seem to have a zillion failure points. Does one have greater risk than the other? If so, how much? Or are rebreathers just as safe as OC scuba.

Rick,

You have gotten some good advice so far..

On the matter of risk vs OC, well that depends on the dive, the CURRENT experience of the diver (what is meant by this is how much diving has been done on the rig RECENTLY, even the most experienced diver gets rusty..) and how attentive a diver is to maintenence and predive checks..

OC is obviously the simplest, but not necesarily the safest.. The relative safety depends on the depth and if a direct ascent shallower (not necessarily the surface ) is possible.. When you are deep, any problem on OC is generally serious since gas supplies are limited..

SCR, scrs are a gas extension device, they offer no advantage on decompression over OC. Thedo have the benefit of being quieter and warmer gas.. SCRs are simple but without PO2 monitoring (which is NOT standard on any SCR rig), the rigs can be dangerous because the diver really has no way of knowing what they are breathing.. A po2 monitor goes along way on making things safer.. prett much any failure on an SCR means bailing to OC..

CCR, offer many benefits,, Deco, dive duration, war, ect.. They also offer the most options to get yourself out of trouble.. if the loop is intack the diver can usually fall back to run it as a manual SCR, then if this fails go to OC.. For a new or rusty CCR diver, I would say the risk is higher than OC but not significantly.. For some experienced and in practice in most cases I would say the risk is lower for most dives.. The deeper the dive the "safer"I would say a CCR is compared to OC since "time" is taken out of the equation in many cases.. If you are deep on OC you have to solve the problem quickly, on a CCR this generally isnt the case..

If you want to be a good buddy make sure you are familiar with your buddies rig.. ASK questions... Practice with your buddy flushing his loop.. make sure you understand how to open/close the dsv, and add diluent or oxygen.. Don;t disturb your buddy during his setup, distractions could lead to a check being missed if a physical checklist is not used.. Be aware that during ascents and descents the CCR diver will be much busier than an OC diver.. and as was pointed out remeber RB divers want to swim AROUND things NOT over them..


If you are diving deep, make it a point to know what gases he is using for his diluent and his bailout.. If hes using a hypoxic diluent you NEED to know this.. You need to know what depth its breathable at so you know the correct response should you have to add gas to your buddies loop..

A common hypoxic mix used by CCR divers is 50% helium 10% oxygen.. You have to be deepr than 6m (20fsw) if you are going to flush, otherwise you can make things worse.. 6m or shallower its best to flush the loop with oxygen but if ou know its air or normoxic a dil flush is ok..

Deeper than 6m/20fsw, in most cases if you saw your bussy having a problem and he seemd unresponsive to your querries, flush the loop with diluent would get a breathable mix in the loop..
 
Rick,

Here is a site you may find interesting. Tom came to visit with the NC Divers Saturday and discussed rebreathers. It's a really interesting subject with a lot of myth and misinformation floating around. As it turns out rebreathers have been around for more than 100 yrs, the first designs date to the 1880's.
http://www.atlimp.com/home.htm
 
Great info, you guys. Thanks!
 
herman:
Rick,

Here is a site you may find interesting. Tom came to visit with the NC Divers Saturday and discussed rebreathers. It's a really interesting subject with a lot of myth and misinformation floating around. As it turns out rebreathers have been around for more than 100 yrs, the first designs date to the 1880's.
http://www.atlimp.com/home.htm

Tom is definately a pretty innovative guy. I haven't met him yet but hope to some day. I have read a lot of his stuff
 
Rick Inman:
I know enough to be an OK buddy, I guess - the symptoms of O2tox and hypoxia
Violent uncontrollable shaking and passing out. You've got all your bases covered. You can by my buddy any time Rick. :D

PS One of the symptoms of DCS is being in recompression chamber.
 
cornfed:
Violent uncontrollable shaking and passing out. You've got all your bases covered. You can by my buddy any time Rick. :D

PS One of the symptoms of DCS is being in recompression chamber.
You'd be amazed how many symptoms I know! :D
 

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