Rebreather or not?

[joshk]

Fwiw, I was in a similar spot as you about 10 years ago. I have no regrets over the path I chose.

To be fair, you didn't end up on a CCR with that path.

 

[JohnnyC]

If you're hell bent on getting into a CCR, go do a try dive with Simon Nadim on a revo, a meg, and a JJ, and see how much you suck right out of the gate. Hint: You're gonna suck.

I think when you get that first feeling of being a brand new open water diver again, realizing that you'll have to do all of the advanced, task-loaded, potentially compromising skills that you're doing as an OC diver, while feeling like an OW diver, you'll realize that you don't just want to dive in head first into getting a CCR. Something simple like mask clearing has implications on a rebreather that don't exist on OC. Seriously, mask clearing.....

Doing another 100 OC dives isn't gonna screw you over for diving a CCR. It's worth the extra time blowing bubbles. Then reevaluate and see if you still want to go down the CCR path.

The U-boat is cool, but it's still (probably) gonna be there in 100 dives.

 

[PfcAJ]

To be fair, you didn't end up on a CCR with that path.

Nah, I ended up with the best rebreather for what I want to do

 

[DepthCharge]

Actually, I can't think of a single one of his questions that would be answered by a try dive. I certified on a rental unit, and didn't buy my JJ until after I had completed mod 1. I did that on purpose, even though it cost me extra, because before certification you don't even really know what sort of questions to ask, what comparisons to make.

A try dive is fine, but many people say that their demo experience was nothing like what it was like once they started diving a CCR.

Actually, I was thinking that he would know if RB's were for him. It is true that you don't know what specific questions to ask...but if he hated the experience, no matter how much he wanted to use one it would not be for him ( I hope I explained that well).
For me, it was easy............the only available unit at the time I got trained was the Inspo classic. So no comparisons could be made. And I fell in love with RB's. Even tho the INSPO had some POS components.
Later,
John

 

[Dave Bevan]

Hey guys down at the dive site I will respond to everyone when I get back to my room.

 

[Peter69_56]

Love this post.

I just bought a micro Revo and am going down the breather path now. Wish I had known more before I bought a second hand one but thats another story.

Done nearly 600 dives all the way to 100m on OC. I feel as though that will help me as you really need to have good skill base and confidence when diving deep, and must have your sh*t together if things go bad (like getting your mask and regs kicked out at 60m, and having dual bladder failure along with DSMB failure as happened to me, another story), but I do take on board the thought about having to retrain re buoyancy and mask clearing (never thought of that one) as well as other unique skills to CC diving.

As others have said you need to really have all your skills in order as well as be confident when diving deep, regardless of OC or CC. A breather will kill you if you dont do all the pre tests and watch your PPo2, also you must follow correct regime of sensor selection and change. Run the sensors way past their use by date, then not understand what they are telling you regarding maxing out and you die. An instructor I had great respect for, did exactly that and paid the penalty. Use them correctly and understand them fully and I believe the risks are low, have a brazen approach and be a tight arse with servicing and sensors, as well as not understand them correctly and you may well join those who got it wrong. Know what a CO2 hit is as again a friend of mine luckily realised it as it happened and "just" got away with it after bailing and having help from his very experienced instructor.

I could do the dives I want to 100m (USS Atlanta etc) but OC is very very expensive there, and the risks are high and with OC its a big deal setting up all the stages etc pre main dive. With CC its still a big deal, but much much cheaper and overall less effort.

Anyway now I have the damn thing looks like I am going down that path, oh Lord help me blow and suck when I should. OC is easy, breath in then out, when the bubbles stop blowing you are either out of gas or dead, or both.

Ok so I will post after I survive my Helitrox course and post my thoughts on it all after my OC training.

 

[northernone]

Here's an unpopular option:

I'd advocate beginning a diver on CCR and introduce them to OC as a bailout.

The attitudes and dymanics developed in OC diving I found delayed and made my CCR training more difficult with ingrained muscle memory and thought processes which simply don't work or are downright dangerous on CCR and unlearning these added to my task loading.

I suspect simply learning on the appropriate tool for the diving I want to do would have been safer and ultimately easier. I don't have research to back this theory however looking at overovethe the years the number of experienced expedition OC divers who rapidly die shortly after switching to CCR has me worried.

Well, hope this doesn't blacklist me.
Cameron

 

[JohnnyC]

Here's an unpopular option:

I'd advocate beginning a diver on CCR and introduce them to OC as a bailout.

The attitudes and dymanics developed in OC diving I found delayed and made my CCR training more difficult with ingrained muscle memory and thought processes which simply don't work or are downright dangerous on CCR and unlearning these added to my task loading.

I suspect simply learning on the appropriate tool for the diving I want to do would have been safer and ultimately easier. I don't have research to back this theory however looking at overovethe the years the number of experienced expedition OC divers who rapidly die shortly after switching to CCR has me worried.

Well, hope this doesn't blacklist me.
Cameron

Appropriate tool, sure, but a new diver wanting to hit deep wrecks isn't the right candidate for hitting a deep wreck out of the gate period, regardless of what they're diving. Every CCR diver needs to be an OC diver. Full stop. Bailing out is a bad time to figure out that you've got a poor OC skillset. Every CCR diver will be an OC diver at the worst possible time in their dive career, when they need those skills the most, when they take a CO2 hit, when they're dealing with a flooded unit, when they're dealing with a compromised loop. The accident curve on a CCR gets real steep, real quick.

The problem tends to be that CCR divers' OC skills suffer enough as it is once they make the switch to full time CCR. Now put someone that doesn't even have that skillset in the first place, and it's a recipe for trouble. Diving something like a burp box Explorer at 15m is one thing, but people who want full CCR's tend not to be the piddle-along-the-shallow-reef type. And they're generally the type that want to stack every odd in their favor.

There are many cases where the appropriate tool from the get go is the right response, however you don't put someone in a Formula 1 car because they want to go fast without them learning to drive in something a little more reasonable. And I'm certainly not trying to argue agains the "right tool" mentality, but without the base level of fundamental mastery, I think that disaster horizon is much closer than anticipated. I just think CCR's are a poor candidate for using that argument. If you don't know the alphabet, how successful are you going to be trying to read Shakespeare.

Quasi-related, wasn't your own incident compounded by trying to stay on the loop well past the point where you should have gotten off? Now imagine someone with only a tiny handful of dives, who's completely uncomfortable on OC. They would have breathed that loop right into a coffin if only due to a lack of confidence on OC.

 

[northernone]

Appropriate tool, sure, but a new diver wanting to hit deep wrecks isn't the right candidate for hitting a deep wreck out of the gate period, regardless of what they're diving. Every CCR diver needs to be an OC diver. Full stop. Bailing out is a bad time to figure out that you've got a poor OC skillset. Every CCR diver will be an OC diver at the worst possible time in their dive career, when they need those skills the most, when they take a CO2 hit, when they're dealing with a flooded unit, when they're dealing with a compromised loop. The accident curve on a CCR gets real steep, real quick.

The problem tends to be that CCR divers' OC skills suffer enough as it is once they make the switch to full time CCR. Now put someone that doesn't even have that skillset in the first place, and it's a recipe for trouble. Diving something like a burp box Explorer at 15m is one thing, but people who want full CCR's tend not to be the piddle-along-the-shallow-reef type. And they're generally the type that want to stack every odd in their favor.

There are many cases where the appropriate tool from the get go is the right response, however you don't put someone in a Formula 1 car because they want to go fast without them learning to drive in something a little more reasonable. And I'm certainly not trying to argue agains the "right tool" mentality, but without the base level of fundamental mastery, I think that disaster horizon is much closer than anticipated. I just think CCR's are a poor candidate for using that argument. If you don't know the alphabet, how successful are you going to be trying to read Shakespeare.

Quasi-related, wasn't your own incident compounded by trying to stay on the loop well past the point where you should have gotten off? Now imagine someone with only a tiny handful of dives, who's completely uncomfortable on OC. They would have breathed that loop right into a coffin if only due to a lack of confidence on OC.

Thank you for humoring my developing perspective.

Excellent clarification. I'm in agreement, it's unlikely those wanting to get to 200m quickly are likely not those who should be doing those dives quickly. I'm not convinced having people learn OC first in an attempt to slow them down will be effective.

Attempt at a metaphor:

"If someone wants to learn to shoot a gun we don't enroll them in a knife handling course first even though it's the backup tool to a gun depending on what you are hunting. The gun safety training program is much slower but all the training is focused on the intended tool."

I'd be left wondering if OC wasn't assumed to be 'familiar' to CCR divers we would be more likely to frequently practice bail out drills and this would eventually results in safer CCR divers. Coming off a loop to OC with a throat full of sorb dust slurry is a really different thing from using OC as a primary breathing source. Could it be this is why so many experienced OC divers historically run into trouble with insufficient bailout as CCR divers or sometimes rush their training progression because they count on OC experience being significant when on CCR?

Thinking of my own progression and my recent incident I suspect I would be a safer and wiser rebreather diver in the situation if I had an extra 20 years experience on CCR instead of OC.

Upon saying that, I'm glad my parents had scuba gear instead of a rebreather to teach myself on as a child. I'd very likely not have made it to my 8th birthday.

Being experienced OC has disadvantages as well as advantages in regards helping develop to safe mindsets and procedures for learning CCR. I don't believe we can count on further OC training being necessarily helpful in preparing for CCR.

Hope this isn't too far off topic.

Regards,
Cameron

 

[Peter69_56]

Appropriate tool, sure, but a new diver wanting to hit deep wrecks isn't the right candidate for hitting a deep wreck out of the gate period, regardless of what they're diving. Every CCR diver needs to be an OC diver. Full stop. Bailing out is a bad time to figure out that you've got a poor OC skillset. Every CCR diver will be an OC diver at the worst possible time in their dive career, when they need those skills the most, when they take a CO2 hit, when they're dealing with a flooded unit, when they're dealing with a compromised loop. The accident curve on a CCR gets real steep, real quick.

The problem tends to be that CCR divers' OC skills suffer enough as it is once they make the switch to full time CCR. Now put someone that doesn't even have that skillset in the first place, and it's a recipe for trouble. Diving something like a burp box Explorer at 15m is one thing, but people who want full CCR's tend not to be the piddle-along-the-shallow-reef type. And they're generally the type that want to stack every odd in their favor.

There are many cases where the appropriate tool from the get go is the right response, however you don't put someone in a Formula 1 car because they want to go fast without them learning to drive in something a little more reasonable. And I'm certainly not trying to argue agains the "right tool" mentality, but without the base level of fundamental mastery, I think that disaster horizon is much closer than anticipated. I just think CCR's are a poor candidate for using that argument. If you don't know the alphabet, how successful are you going to be trying to read Shakespeare.

Quasi-related, wasn't your own incident compounded by trying to stay on the loop well past the point where you should have gotten off? Now imagine someone with only a tiny handful of dives, who's completely uncomfortable on OC. They would have breathed that loop right into a coffin if only due to a lack of confidence on OC.

This has been my mindset as well. I can already see some of the potential issues with CCR and havent even sucked a breath yet.

Whilst I have some experienced breather divers here, when you have a dry suit as well, do you tap it off the DIL cylinder, or run another cylinder. Whilst it seems there is not much air in the 3 litre DIL cylinder, I can see that probably once you are at depth and trimmed, there is sufficient air, however if you are constantly trimming, via the wing or playing with dry suit the DIL wont go far, thus do people hook into their bail out for trim/drysuit or you learn the skill and its never a problem? Thoughts?