Razor sidemount system and training options

[Patoux01]

If only I could get my hands on those specifically american tanks that they all are talking about... :depressed:

 

[gearhound]

Edd isn't who I'd go to for Razor training. I'd go to Edd for SMS75/Halcyon Contour/SMS100/Hog SM training. I'd go to him for Sidemount training. I'm a huge fan of Edd....I'll put that right out there. I think he's one of the best instructors out there, period. Probably THE best for sidemount. Michal Turek (his head instructor) is fantastic as well. I like his teaching method and style. If you take his Sidemount course, you'll know what you need to know to make ANY sidemount rig work. Period. If you take someone else's class, you'll learn (at best) how to make THEIR sidemount rig work. Having dove with Edd and multiple Stealth/Razor instructors, I feel very confident stating that outright.

gearhound: If you don't think those tanks are too low, you should probably consider further training. Also, those are the ONE type of tanks that are almost an exception outside of Europe. The buoyant LP85s. The heavy LP85s won't work. The heavy 104s/108s won't work. Stages with those 85s will barely work (and not well). The razor does poorly with MOST steel tanks because it wasn't designed that way. Its entire geometry is built on the lightweight AL80s. It does a GREAT job of AL80s (almost as good as the Stealth). It simply doesn't do MOST steels well. The wing will come off of your back and turn into a gigantic beach ball. I've dove with a guy diving Worthington LP85s (not very heavy tanks) in a Razor. This guy was Steve-trained in his Razor. I could fit my fist between his back and his wing. He's completely stopped diving his Razor in favor of his SMS100....even in Abaco/Mexico/Dominican caves.

---------- Post added March 4th, 2015 at 04:38 PM ----------



One thing I'll say here is that with Edd's academic training, his in-water skills training, and fifteen minutes worth of YouTube videos and a few dives worth of tweaking....you can EASILY dive the Razor super well with Edd's training. His in-water skills are VERY demanding. You actually learn what it feels like to have everything "just right" and can easily transfer that to other rigs. I made a custom Razor-style harness for single-tank AL80 diving in a shorty in the Caribbean. EASY to set up. Would've been a pain without Edd's knowledge transfer....and I didn't even take his SM class (Did Cavern->Full+Deco with Michal, Apprentice with Edd...learned a ton).

I'm glad you enjoyed your course with Edd, but I'm curious as to which Razor/Stealth instructors you've dove with?

I know you like to harp on all the forums about what can't be done by others, without looking at the limitations of your own system and beliefs. And I know you think Florida is the centre of the universe, but there's a whole other world out there. I'm confident in my ability to dive steels. I've even posted video of it. I love my Fabers and have a set of Worthingtons. But that is beside the point. The OP already said he wasn't going to dive steels.

If the Hollis stuff is so good, why are you guys always modifying it? You can't dive the SMS100 without the mods to make it more like an Armadillo. You still need to modify the SMS75. You look like crap diving al80s with those rigs. You have to put trim weights on your shoulders and on the tanks, etc... Plus they're crappy for travelling with.

And in the same vein as you, I've been in the water with many "sidemount" instructors and students that use the Hollis systems. They look like crap! In fact, it isn't too hard to go on youtube to find evidence of such.

 

[victorzamora]

I'm glad you enjoyed your course with Edd, but I'm curious as to which Razor/Stealth instructors you've dove with?

I know you like to harp on all the forums about what can't be done by others, without looking at the limitations of your own system and beliefs. And I know you think Florida is the centre of the universe, but there's a whole other world out there. I'm confident in my ability to dive steels. I've even posted video of it. I love my Fabers and have a set of Worthingtons. But that is beside the point. The OP already said he wasn't going to dive steels.

If the Hollis stuff is so good, why are you guys always modifying it? You can't dive the SMS100 without the mods to make it more like an Armadillo. You still need to modify the SMS75. You look like crap diving al80s with those rigs. You have to put trim weights on your shoulders and on the tanks, etc... Plus they're crappy for travelling with.

And in the same vein as you, I've been in the water with many "sidemount" instructors and students that use the Hollis systems. They look like crap! In fact, it isn't too hard to go on youtube to find evidence of such.

The points you make are very inapplicable to this discussion. Yes, there are incompetent SMS100 divers. Yes, there are incompetent sidemount instructors. However, I've dove with multiple Razor and Stealth instructors. Not randomly certified guys, but Steve-trained guys. One of them helped develop and do initial testing on the Stealth. Becoming a Stealth and Razor instructor is much harder than becoming PADI Sidemount instructor. It's like saying doubles suck because some random moron put on doubles and was incompetent. I'm talking about the equivalent in sidemount to a GUE diver in backmount.

As for FL being the center of the universe, that's absolutely not my belief. However, I will say that I'm much less limited by my system than you are by yours. If the video you posted was of you diving steels "well" in your Razor then you should think again. That's not "success" by any stretch of the imagination.

As for the SMS75, it's perfectly fine unmodified. There are a few things that you can do to make them slightly more user friendly that many divers prefer (like welded d-rings that I prefer to the floppy ones), but it's ready to dive out of the box. In fact, I have dove a completely unmodified Halcyon Contour AND SMS75. No issues in any way.

As for SMS divers not being capable of diving alu tanks, this goes back to the "random moron with a credit card" thing. Yes, random morons ruin the name of sidemount by randomly buckling crap together. In fact, many big name instructors ruin sidemount by doing the same thing. However, I'm just as flat and confident in my SMS100 with alu tanks as anybody in a Razor. Zero weights on shoulders or tanks. I wear weights when diving AL80s because I'm always in salt water with floaty tanks and I need lead to sink.....but I don't do it to trim out. I travel with mine fine, don't use weights on my tanks, and get great results. So do many of my dive buddies. I use the same geometry when diving AL80s as you do in your Razor, so if you dislike my results you have to dislike yours as well.

The fact of the matter is that, besides Faber LP85s and Euro12s, the Stealth/Razor are just NOT optimized for steels. They can't dive steels well. I CAN dive alu in my SMS100. Period. Very well. Period. Suggesting limitations on the SMS75 (et al) are purely self-imposed, but the limits on the Razor/Stealth are real and imposed by physics.

The point wasn't SMS100 vs Razor, but "random" instructor vs Edd. With Edd's class, he teaches you the physics behind how and why. If OP takes Edd's class in an SMS100 and then goes off and buys a Razor, he can easily and confidently get it diving in a MUCH more abbreviated time than without the class. OP's proximity to Edd is why I suggested it.

 

[victorzamora]

Here's what I'm talking about. Red is where your tank is. Green is where your tank should be. This isn't a success story in my book.

 

[Patoux01]

That's just using too long of a bungee and/or too weak.

 

[gearhound]

That's not a video of me btw. Just a video of divers using the Razor with steel tanks. I know you like to keep changing the target and adding more restrictions, but I think it's been shown that you can dive steel tanks with the Razor.

Sorry, what was the name of those instructors again? Only ask because none of the official ones are listed in Florida.

But aren't you talking about "random morons" when using your judgement on Razor divers? I get that here a lot. I dive and teach with the Stealth. But you get a lot of divers that figure that they can teach themselves from youtube videos. They miss on the intricacies of set up. I have owned or used most of the major sidemount systems out there. I have based my choices and decisions on personal usage.

I'm curious to your limitations on "physics". The Stealth has 35 pounds of lift, the SMS75 has 35 pounds of lift, the modified SMS100 has 35 pounds of lift. "Magic Lift" in the Hollis systems?

As for "random instructor", I believe the original poster was asking about training with Bogaerts. Plus the OP has stated that he wasn't going to dive steels. If he wants to learn how to dive the Razor, I am fully confident that he will learn it faster and better taking a class from Bogaerts in a Razor than he would from taking a class from Edd in an SMS and then trying to convert.

 

[victorzamora]

Only ask because none of the official ones are listed in Florida.

It wasn't in FL. It was in Mx. At least one of them of them wasn't based in Mx, but was in Mx. Believe me, they were official ones.

As for the physics, it's not a matter of raw lift numbers....but for the record, the SMS75 is 40lbs and the modified SMS100 is closer to 45lbs. I'm not getting farther into a debate with you as this isn't Razor vs SMS100.

If he wants to learn how to dive the Razor, I am fully confident that he will learn it faster and better taking a class from Bogaerts in a Razor than he would from taking a class from Edd in an SMS and then trying to convert.

OP asked if Edd was a good choice. Due to proximity, he is. He does teach people in Razors. He'll also teach students in other SM harnesses. His class is also spectacularly through. For diving JUST the Razor, Steve Bogaerts is obviously the best choice. Considering money, convenience, and overall course....then Edd starts making a lot more sense.

 

[Aquavelvet]

Well, not do derail a good Scubaboard debate in progress, I can recommend that the OP take a trip to Mexico, where there are several good instructors that teach Sidemount. Following that, a Cavern class would be a good next step. After all, the good sidemount instructors all work in the Cenotes.

I might suggest the Xdeep Stealth system, as it is a it more versatile than the Razor, but it depends on where you want to dive with your rig. The Stealth works fine with some of the lighter weight steel tanks, especially the old LP 72s and the Faber LP 85s. The advantage to these is at they are light enough to unclip at the rear and push forward with out taking a nose dive. I used Faber FX100s briefly with my Stealth rig, but found they were too heavy to push forward. The FX100s make a nice twinset instead.

As far as angle swivels go, you don't need one on the long hose (right side tank). A 100 degree swivel makes the shorter hose from the left side tank more comfortable. It will be best to work with your instructor to get the hose routing sorted properly.


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[opie712]

I would like to hear the names of the instructors also, for me I chose the stealth for several reasons but the biggest was travel. When I travel the tanks will most likely be al80, when I go to fl ill be using 85s and I've seen plenty of you tube videos and photos of the stealth with back gas and mutli stages, I thought it done a good job

 

[rongoodman]

If you want to get trained on the Stealth, go to the guys at Protec. Patrick was one of the developers. FWIW, I started out with the Razor but switched to the Stealth because I got tired of the ballooning Razor wing.