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The best way to avoid wing failures/issues/pinch flats/donut vs horse shoe/lift capacity/arguments/etc,.. is to simply not to use one.
There see, fixed the whole problem.
 
Wow, after reading this thread I can see why most dive shops put new divers into poodle jackets. It does make things much easier when you can just say "Here take this jacket, your weights go here, your secondary is there, to go up move this lever up, to go down move this lever down.". After the new diver has some experience and is more comfortable in the water they can come back and purchase a BP/W already knowing what is what. Seems like a much easier and profitable way to do business. I think Tobin is getting a pretty bad wrap in this thread but what it comes down to is he is producing and selling gear that helps make diving more enjoyable not gear that makes more profit. Everyone badmouths the big gear manufacturers when they sell fluff but the person that does not sell fluff gets it just as bad. Just goes to show that you can't make everyone happy.
 
Wow, after reading this thread I can see why most dive shops put new divers into poodle jackets. It does make things much easier when you can just say "Here take this jacket, your weights go here, your secondary is there, to go up move this lever up, to go down move this lever down.". After the new diver has some experience and is more comfortable in the water they can come back and purchase a BP/W already knowing what is what. Seems like a much easier and profitable way to do business. I think Tobin is getting a pretty bad wrap in this thread but what it comes down to is he is producing and selling gear that helps make diving more enjoyable not gear that makes more profit. Everyone badmouths the big gear manufacturers when they sell fluff but the person that does not sell fluff gets it just as bad. Just goes to show that you can't make everyone happy.
Most divers do exactly that. Most divers aren't on scubaboard, most never even heard of scubaboard.
We're the ones here doing rectal surgery on gnats about this whole topic, and I think it's hilarious.
In some ways the people that use jackets and never heard of scubaboard or BP/W are probably happier, they just dive.
 
OK, I have to say, there are too many divers today that think that a BC ( bp/wing) is their "up-down elevator"....this is not the case...if you do this, you need to get wired to an electric dog collar and get shocked every time you use the BC this way....So you see something below you and off to the side. You should be neutral from using your bc or wing correctly, or, maybe negative if you were involved in a descent just prior to seeing the sight you wanted to get to..... Your FINS are what get you down to the sight 10 feet or 30 feet deeper , and off to the side--you should be swimming there....If you don't like to swim----- BUY a scooter......but the Wing or BC is the WRONG tool for this example. And I'm sorry, even if you had mistakenly added air to your wing, anyone with even average propulsive skills should easily power down with fins against a 5 pound positive bc flotation. Sure you should have dumped it, but getting to the objective trumps means swimming to it, and if you can ge the wing or bc to help, all the better.

Erm.. If you actually read my post, I said NOTHING about using the BC to go down to see something below me. I said FIN there. And most people after you seem to have assumed you read correctly and based their comments off that.

Which brings me to ask another question, as a beginner who genuinely does not know - When affected by vertical currents (upcurrent or downcurrent, washing machine current), should I only use my fins to counter the current, or should I utilise my BC as well? E.g. upcurrent: reduce air in BC, downcurrent: increase air in BC (slightly, not massive and uncontrolled inflation)

I've been in a down current and used my BC together with finning at 45 deg outwards from the wall to get out of it. As I moved out of the current, I naturally removed some of the air in my BC to get back to neutral.

Basically, stuck in an upward current, should I be using my fins only? Assuming I was neutral before getting hit by the upward current.
 
Erm.. If you actually read my post, I said NOTHING about using the BC to go down to see something below me. I said FIN there. And most people after you seem to have assumed you read correctly and based their comments off that.

Which brings me to ask another question, as a beginner who genuinely does not know - When affected by vertical currents (upcurrent or downcurrent, washing machine current), should I only use my fins to counter the current, or should I utilise my BC as well? E.g. upcurrent: reduce air in BC, downcurrent: increase air in BC (slightly, not massive and uncontrolled inflation)

I've been in a down current and used my BC together with finning at 45 deg outwards from the wall to get out of it. As I moved out of the current, I naturally removed some of the air in my BC to get back to neutral.

Basically, stuck in an upward current, should I be using my fins only? Assuming I was neutral before getting hit by the upward current.

As soon as you indicated you were already at some depth on a dive, and needed to be begin descending and turning, and that this required a 2nd dump valve to be optimal, it pretty well laid the foundation for this interpretation :-)


Upward currents by a wall are rarely experienced by most divers....same with down currents. For the discussion, we will assume you were in a place where there is such a thing--and if so, fin power is much easier to regulate speed up or down with....but----if fin power is not enough, then the BC may be required in such an unlikely emergency scenario. Also, this would be a good reason to use freediving fins, in a place where up or down currents, are a "norm" to be dealt with.....and doing bicycle training like a racer of 100 to 200 miles per week, including interval days, to ensure that you have the fitness to easily swim against such currents. ( usually when I start my "you need freediving fins" rants, the first thing I hear are whines about how divers should not need to have a high speed pair of fins......If you found a great dive site that had the added challenges of up and down currents on a regular basis, suddenly freediving fins would be HOT! )

So that this is not all useless speculation, WHERE was this "up current"? And how likely is it that you will ever experience another?
 
OK, I have to say, there are too many divers today that think that a BC ( bp/wing) is their "up-down elevator"....this is not the case...if you do this, you need to get wired to an electric dog collar and get shocked every time you use the BC this way....So you see something below you and off to the side. You should be neutral from using your bc or wing correctly, or, maybe negative if you were involved in a descent just prior to seeing the sight you wanted to get to..... Your FINS are what get you down to the sight 10 feet or 30 feet deeper , and off to the side--you should be swimming there....If you don't like to swim----- BUY a scooter......but the Wing or BC is the WRONG tool for this example. And I'm sorry, even if you had mistakenly added air to your wing, anyone with even average propulsive skills should easily power down with fins against a 5 pound positive bc flotation. Sure you should have dumped it, but getting to the objective trumps means swimming to it, and if you can ge the wing or bc to help, all the better.

I was encouraged in Fundies to not be reluctant to add air to ascend and dump air to descend. I assumed it was a GUE/DIR thing. To be precise, the context wasn't add/dump versus propel up/down with fins. Rather, it was add/dump versus breath control. His point was that recreational divers tend to want to take a large breath to rise over something rather than simply add a little air to the wing, and he discouraged that practice. Nothing he said, though, suggested it would be improper to propel up or down with fins when the situation calls for it (obviously not when swimming along in trim).
 
As soon as you indicated you were already at some depth on a dive, and needed to be begin descending and turning, and that this required a 2nd dump valve to be optimal, it pretty well laid the foundation for this interpretation :-)


Upward currents by a wall are rarely experienced by most divers....same with down currents. For the discussion, we will assume you were in a place where there is such a thing--and if so, fin power is much easier to regulate speed up or down with....but----if fin power is not enough, then the BC may be required in such an unlikely emergency scenario. Also, this would be a good reason to use freediving fins, in a place where up or down currents, are a "norm" to be dealt with.....and doing bicycle training like a racer of 100 to 200 miles per week, including interval days, to ensure that you have the fitness to easily swim against such currents. ( usually when I start my "you need freediving fins" rants, the first thing I hear are whines about how divers should not need to have a high speed pair of fins......If you found a great dive site that had the added challenges of up and down currents on a regular basis, suddenly freediving fins would be HOT! )

So that this is not all useless speculation, WHERE was this "up current"? And how likely is it that you will ever experience another?


The part about descending and turning was to give an example of how air can get trapped in the right side of your wing, not about needing to use your wing to do that. I completely agree that your BC should not be used to ascend or descend in a normal situation like that.

And then after trapping air there, in the event of a need to vent while facing downwards (because of an upward current), how a right side vent is useful.

And I have been in upward currents in the Maldives and the Philippines, usually when there is a current blowing towards a wall, then going up over the wall and going horizontal across a pinnacle. At the other side of the pinnacle, there is often a down current. I don't believe it to be a rare situation at all, although the intensity of the current is not always super strong. This seems to be quite common with a slightly angled wall (not fully vertical, maybe 60-70 degrees vertical), and when I am nearer the top of the wall.

Basically, on a wall, having no right dump turns me into a little bit of a mono-turner (a la Zoolander). From vertical I have to remember not to rotate left. Which sucks when we are moving leftwards along the wall. Maybe a poodle jacket really is the thing for me, although I do love the even weighting of a backplate, the non-squeezing nature of a wing and the simplicity of a hog harness.

So, assuming I do run into upward currents, and that I like diving walls, are we agreeing that a right side dump is useful? That a diver who happens to do such types of dives would be served better by a wing with different design?

Tobin makes a reasonably good point about donating air with my right hand, which I had not thought about. Although I do tend to have a torch in my right hand anyway, and generally assume if my buddy if going out of air (I ALWAYS check my buddy's air multiple times a dive), he/she is going to just rip mine off, and I'm obviously going to then automatically drop the dump valve and use my hand to pop my octo into my mouth.

Also, I don't disagree with the need for good fins, but you are bringing your own pet topic/agenda of freediving fins into the question. I use Avanti Quattro's, which are rated pretty decently here, and I have not felt like I was lacking power (except when chasing the shadow of a whale shark, but everyone else was slower than me anyway, so there was no point going faster and breaking off from the group). Plus, I fly to where I dive, and freediving fins aren't exactly travel friendly. And, whadaya know, I do bike and do intervals - big fan of Sufferfest videos here!
 
I'm assuming the last few posts are related to warm water destinations where there are constant long shore currents and especially currents along walls where sometimes the currents either go up or down.
It's my understanding that in warm tropical locations a minimal amount of exposure protection (or none) is used so that would also relate to a minimal or perhaps no air really needed in a BC. Why then would someone use a BC to try and fight currents?
It takes a few seconds for added air to have any affect, and then when it does have an affect it's very uncontrollable. Fins are immediate and provide positive power right when you need it. And to me this whole notion that a diver must stay flat throughout the dive is ludicrous. Maybe in a cave or a wreck where you must be extremely careful, but out in open water I use any body position I need to to get the job done. If that means going head down verticle and finning downwards as hard as I can to get out of an up current, or reverse head up finning up to get out of a down current then so be it. Inflating a wing is also nothing more that letting out a big sail for water to grab and have it's way with, which will be much more detrimental than the counter affect of the air you put inside.
Jeez, you guys that dive warm water must have no idea how easy you have it. If I could ever break free and go somewhere like that the first thing I would do would be to scrap the wing and just dive free.
 

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