Question - Weights and Flutter Kick

[Ronniemu]

My body weight is 150 lbs at a height of 5' 6". I am a bodybuilder who decided to do SCUBA Diving at the age of 60. Most of my body weight is from my waist up. During my confined water dives my instructor had me using between 14 to 18 lbs in my intergrated BCD. MY flutter kick was poor. When I try to flutter kick my body moved out of control. I ask another instructor for help as I was never check at the surface for proper weighting. The instructor then had me try various weights. I used 14 lbs, when I empty my BCD and exhaled my body went under and and my feet went rapidly towards the surface (I was almost upside down). The instructor then reduced the weights to 12 lbs in my BCD and gave me a total of 3 lbs for my ankles. This change in weights greatly improved my flutter kick and when checking for proper weighting at the surface, everything went okay, my feet stayed under my body. My flutter kick has now improved, but I still have a problem. When I kick and keep my arms at my side and backward toward my feet the kicking is fine. When I move my arms together and fold then near my chest I roll uncontrollable to the point that I must put my arms at my sides towards my feet to regain control. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.



Ronnie

 

[immersed]

Have you ever heard the joke about the guy that goes into the doctor's office and says 'doctor, doctor, my arm hurts when I move it like this'. The doctor replies, 'then don't move it like that'.

Placing your arms in a fixed position is good for a couple of reasons. If they're locked you can't use your hands for sculling, which will force you to develop better control. If they're flailing about they're also likely creating drag.

You can accomplish the same thing by keeping them at your sides. I generally hook my fingers on the bottom of my tank. It sounds as if in your case you're going to be a bit more streamlined that way anyway, and streamlined is good (think double-ended bullet - large arms folded in front is more like a sideways 'P'). If that's not comfortable you could grab the bottom of your BC at the sides, although depending on the length of your bc they may not wind up being straight. If you're really good the hands could remain loose (grabbing the tank helps my hands to remember to not jet out when they're not supposed to).

Many here will tell you that ankle weights aren't a good idea because you're basically loading down your motor, which translates to you exerting more muscle force and therefore using more air. Personally I think they're useful as a temporary crutch so that you can move forward increasing your skills instead of getting hung up on a single problem. Even without any urging, you would probably find that you no longer need them after a dozen or two dives.

If you want to get rid of them sooner, you can try moving some of your weight from your BC to a weight belt, and try mounting your tank a little lower on the BC - this is more effective with a steel tank, but even with an aluminum it's worth a shot. You might want to try different fins - some are positively buoyant and others negative, and at this point negative is going to be more helpful to you. You're also going to find that as you gain comfort in the water, you're going to be able to drop some more weight. With your build, that's likely going to make a significant difference.

I've not seen you kick, but I'm wondering if maybe you're putting a bit too much gusto into it. Remember, everything happens slower in the water, and no one's racing - there's no extra points for who can get back to the boat first. Actually it's the other way around - whoever has the best air consumption gets back to the boat last. Most of my kicking is just a flick-flick-glide.......flick-flick-glide...... You use air exponentially faster the faster you try to swim.

Good luck, welcome to the board and welcome to diving.

 

[Ronniemu]

I went into the pool today to practice for my OW Dive 1/2 scheduled for tomorrow. I placed my hands at my sides, put on my ankle weights and took your advice and slowed down my kick. It feels so natural now (No roll). My kick had improved greatly because of my ankle weights and a slower flutter kick, I feel like I have control. I tried folding my hands in front again and I no longer have a problem with rolling, but I am more confortable when the arms are at my sides. The ankle weights and the slower kick help me, I am in no rush to change this at this time. Thanks for the time and effort that you have taken to reply to my problem. Ronnie

 

[Dion]

I'm not sure if this will help, but might also try doing a "frog kick". I do it most of the time now and I don't even remember when I started doing it. It isn't good when you want speed but, when doing a relaxing scenic dive, it works really well, especially if you are already in a bit of current. It also minimizes the amount of stuff you kick up from the bottom.

Dion

 

[radinator]

Ditto on the frog kick. It is more of a kick and glide motion, so you require less oxygen for the muscles. Lots of people find it is great for air consumption.

 

[spectrum]

After a doing my first few solo dives with my wife I got to dive with a seasoned diver. He pointed out that while my weight seemed just about right I was foot heavy and needed to keep ligtly finning so my legs would remain prone. The sensation was most certainly like heavy legs.

For the next dive I moved my tank tpward 1-1/2" and moved 6 pounds up into the trim pockets, voila, no more heavy legs, they just trail behnd me and my bouyany control improved by an order of magnitude.

Even though your problem is the opposite consider if you may be top heavy, forcing your feet high. Your physical condition dosen't sound consistent with floaty feet to me. Try sliding your tank lower and/or moving some weight from the integrated pockets down to a belt.

Pete

My body weight is 150 lbs at a height of 5' 6". I am a bodybuilder who decided to do SCUBA Diving at the age of 60. Most of my body weight is from my waist up. During my confined water dives my instructor had me using between 14 to 18 lbs in my intergrated BCD. MY flutter kick was poor. When I try to flutter kick my body moved out of control. I ask another instructor for help as I was never check at the surface for proper weighting. The instructor then had me try various weights. I used 14 lbs, when I empty my BCD and exhaled my body went under and and my feet went rapidly towards the surface (I was almost upside down). The instructor then reduced the weights to 12 lbs in my BCD and gave me a total of 3 lbs for my ankles. This change in weights greatly improved my flutter kick and when checking for proper weighting at the surface, everything went okay, my feet stayed under my body. My flutter kick has now improved, but I still have a problem. When I kick and keep my arms at my side and backward toward my feet the kicking is fine. When I move my arms together and fold then near my chest I roll uncontrollable to the point that I must put my arms at my sides towards my feet to regain control. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.



Ronnie

 

[Ronniemu]

After a doing my first few solo dives with my wife I got to dive with a seasoned diver. He pointed out that while my weight seemed just about right I was foot heavy and needed to keep ligtly finning so my legs would remain prone. The sensation was most certainly like heavy legs.

For the next dive I moved my tank tpward 1-1/2" and moved 6 pounds up into the trim pockets, voila, no more heavy legs, they just trail behnd me and my bouyany control improved by an order of magnitude.

Even though your problem is the opposite consider if you may be top heavy, forcing your feet high. Your physical condition dosen't sound consistent with floaty feet to me. Try sliding your tank lower and/or moving some weight from the integrated pockets down to a belt.

Pete

I will be purchasing my own equipment within a week or two. I will take your advice and try lowering the tank more towards my feet. I do believe this should correct the problem. I had consider going to a weight belt during my class for cetification, but my instructor did not agree without explanation.

 

[CD_in_Chitown]

I will be purchasing my own equipment within a week or two. I will take your advice and try lowering the tank more towards my feet. I do believe this should correct the problem. I had consider going to a weight belt during my class for cetification, but my instructor did not agree without explanation.

Are you certain that you are ready to fork out the cash for your gear? I would caution you to get a better feel for your own buoyancy characteristics as you try to find the right rig for you. You're probably going to replace it within a couple of years anyway, but the more you know beforehand the longer this kit will last you. There's many good reasons for having your own kit, but I think there are many for not buying your own too soon. Especially for someone who is still working out the trim, or fighting the roll so to speak.

Even if you have found a solution, don't confuse it with THE solution. The solution is probably a combination of your comfort level in the water, the gear that you are wearing, how the weight is configured in the gear, etc. While the ankle weights may be working beautifully for the time being, in the long run they will cause you to expend more energy moving your legs, which will require more air, which shortens dives. I would second (or third/fourth as it may be) the weightbelt suggestion. The instructor who didn't agree (didn't give you an explanation or didn't want you to use without explaining why? I'm assume didn't explain) and didn't explain why is a real gem. There are certainly times that a weightbelt is appropriate. Even if the BC you are wearing is integrated it doesn't mean that that is the best place for YOU to wear your weight.

So as long as the issue is straightened out for now, enjoy diving in the short term. Once you start thinking about dropping some weight (and you should be able to drop weight, to a point, as your comfort level and skills increase) I would lose the ankle weights first and try re-positioning the rest some if needed.

Oh and about the arms, you'll be amazed at how much their positioning contributes to your stability. There is no right position, as long as you find something comfortable, and preferably streamlined.

 

[spectrum]

I will be purchasing my own equipment within a week or two. I will take your advice and try lowering the tank more towards my feet. I do believe this should correct the problem. I had consider going to a weight belt during my class for cetification, but my instructor did not agree without explanation.

As mentioned by CD in Chitown renting (or even borrowing) for a while if you have viable rental options where you are is a safe way to start. Often rental stuff is low end and dosen't really let you try what you might buy. It does let you get more dive savy and you may be able to try your "dream rig" in a shop pool.

As for the instructor.... You're now a certified diver, you're doing the right thing by asking questions and getting insight, you are in charge and responsible for your configuration.

Pete